On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Andrea Faulds <a...@ajf.me> wrote: > > > On 11 Feb 2015, at 21:30, Zeev Suraski <z...@zend.com> wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:ras...@lerdorf.com] > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 8:37 AM > >> To: Xinchen Hui; Andrea Faulds > >> Cc: PHP Internals > >> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Scalar Type Hints > >> > >> On 02/10/2015 07:57 PM, Xinchen Hui wrote: > >>>> am I wrong?! > >>> seems I am wrong with this, it's a false alarm... it can restore > >> automatically. > >> > >> Yeah, declare() doesn't span files so that isn't a problem. > >> > >> My worry is still the lack of type coercion for internal calls. > > > > There's also some pretty interesting analysis on this proposal - based on > > some real world experimentation - from Benjamin Eberlei > > I disagree with some aspects of the blogpost: > > > enabling strict mode completly defeats the purpose, because now we are > forced to convert manually, reimplementing weak type hinting in our own code > > This isn’t true at all. The key difference between explicit conversions > and implicit conversions is that they’re, well, *explicit*. You can see > them, they are blatantly obvious, if you use grep you can find them. > Implicit conversions, while they can sometimes be great, happen silently > and automatically - if they screw up, it can be hard to track down where > the conversion is taking place. With explicit conversions, you’re > converting once and you know you’ve converted. With implicit conversions, > you have no idea where and how often values are being converted. > > > We write code with casts already, the scalar type hints patch is not > necessary for that! Only a superficial level of additional safety is > gained, one additional check of something we already know is true! > > Yet in the previous part he was explaining how existing code doesn’t use > casts and would need them added… so therefore, this thing *isn’t* already > known to be true, and the blogpost is self-contradictory. > > > strict mode is useless for library developers, because I always have to > assume weak mode anyways. > > I don’t really understand at all… either he doesn’t understand the > proposal (which guarantees you get the types you ask for), or it’s a > reference to the claim from the previous paragraph, which I’ve already > responded to. > > > In a well designed application or library, the developer can already > trust the types of his variables today, 95% of the time, without even > having type hints, using carefully designed abstractions (example Symfony > Forms and Doctrine ORM): No substantial win for her from having strict type > hints. > > Yet he was previously explaining how, actually, data coming in from web > requests isn’t the correct types. > > > In a badly designed application, the developer is uncertain about the > types of variables. Using strict mode in this scenario she needs to start > casting everywhere just to be sure. > > In an application using strict mode everywhere with scalar type hints > everywhere, you can’t possibly be uncertain about the types of variables. > > … there’s a lot more in that blog post I could disagree with, but I won’t > bother. Benjamin has his reasons for not liking strict mode. That’s fine. > But if PHP adds strict mode, it has zero effect on him. >
Wait i almost forgot, it *does* have an effect on me, especially around callback handling: https://gist.github.com/schmittjoh/778e044deacc6f1fe516 Essentially callbacks are evaluated in the mode they are called in, not in the one they are defined. > > > If you've voted on this RFC or intend to vote - please spend the few > minutes > > to read through his blog post. It does a good job at actually > illustrating > > what life would look like if this rubber ends up meeting the road. > > Anthony Ferrara also had his own analysis which showed some of the > problems with weak type hinting, and where strict types can be beneficial: > http://blog.ircmaxell.com/2015/02/scalar-types-and-php.html > > I would suggest people read that blog post before voting, as well. It > points out some real-world examples of where weak typing in PHP can be > insufficient (div), or even downright dangerous (curlopt). > > -- > Andrea Faulds > http://ajf.me/ > > > > > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > >
