Hi! > Stas, > > On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Stas Malyshev <smalys...@sugarcrm.com > <mailto:smalys...@sugarcrm.com>> wrote: > > I seriously hope it never comes to this in PHP > > > Would you shut up with this rhetoric already? All it does is show that
I admire your politeness and ability to discuss thing without resorting to insults and personal attacks. No, I will definitely not shut up. > you're completely and utterly out of touch with the reality of modern > development. Really. I was going to write a refutation to that but on the second thought screw it. You are wrong, and you know it, and I'm not going to waste time to dignify that with any more response. > Frankly, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing these recurring themes of > "PHP is not java" and "I never want this". If you never want this, then > don't contribute to the discussions at all. It is a recurring theme because it's true. You are right that every language needs a vision, and PHP's vision is being simple and practical and focused on the web. PHP is what people use to get their first site off the ground. PHP is what a web designer learns when he/she wants to go into programming. PHP is what a random Joe uses when he needs to whip up a page and he's in "do it yourself" mind. PHP is what you expect everybody to be able to handle, and everything to be able to run. It is not to serve everybody, every use case and every possible need. Yes, we try to extend the boundaries and do clever things - but sometimes we have to make a choice. You can not be everything to everybody. And if the choice between some complicated use-case that will be used by maybe 1% of the users and even then will be buried in the guts of some huge library and simplicity and accessibility of the language - I choose the latter every time. Library writers are smart, they can work around it and nobody but them will see it anyway. But turning the language into Java wannabe would affect all the users. And most of them don't need that, in my opinion. That doesn't mean we should not improve and go forward. We should. But we should do it consistent with yes - the vision of the language being accessible and not overly complex. If you want rigid OO-pattern-driven language - you have Java. If you want full mathematics power with full mathematics complexity - you got Scala and Haskell and so on. There's nothing wrong with them. They are just not PHP and PHP is not them. They have their playground and we have ours. Having vision does mean sometimes having to say "PHP is not X" and reject stuff because of that. > If you have solid feedback to provide, then provide it. But saying > "We're supposed to be simple language for doing cool stuff on the web" > shows you have no idea what people have been doing (or don't want > to acknowledge) with the language for the past 5 years. I have feedback to provide and I provide it all the time. But if by "solid" you mean agreeing with you, you're not getting that. > And that brings us to the root of the problem. Discussion like this is > due to the fact that there's no clear "official" vision for PHP. Each > participant brings their own concept and vision, and treats it like it's > everyone else's vision as well (which is the exact reason for your > reply). The need for voting is a byproduct of this lack of vision, not a > requirement in its own right. We had the vision for quite a long time, even though we never officially stated it. Maybe because there was a general consensus about it, maybe because nobody asked. Now that there are many people in PHP with different backgrounds - and make no mistake, it is a great thing - people do disagree about what the vision is. I think we should keep with the vision of being simple and accessible, even if the more complex use cases will be a bit harder to implement. Some folks may disagree, and while I think they are wrong, I accept that there can be legitimate disagreement between us. I don't say "shut up" to them, I say "let's find something that we all could agree on". If we can not, I'd rather prefer the status quo than making it worse by making it too complex and too convoluted. > 1. "PHP Should Strive To Be A Full Featured Object Oriented Language". This is not a good vision, since nobody knows what is "full featured", or everybody knows and it is different for everybody. Most of the things you mention have very little to do with OO as such. Moreover, I see very little value in PHP fitting somebody's definition of "full featured language". I think our features should be driven by what is needed by majority of users, while keeping in sight the overall spirit of not overcomplicating things. Saying "we absolutely must have generators because all cool boys have them" makes little sense to me. Saying "we need generators because they make these frequent use cases easy and here's how we can integrate it into the language in a way that does not add unnecessary complications" - does make sense. Here we can disagree how frequent the cases are, and there can be different opinions on it, but at least we have a common ground on what we could have a common ground :) Saying "do it as I say or PHP is not full-featured" is not a good way to build common ground. > field for contributions and discussions. Rather than every developer > playing for themselves and saying "I hope this never happens", it puts > it in the context of "I don't believe this fits our vision". Note the > difference in tone between them. If it makes it easier, please replace "I hope this never happens" with "I don't believe this fits our vision" in my last response. > It's an ongoing joke about how abusive and unproductive the internals > list is. I for one am sick of it. And rather than keeping ignoring it This is coming from a man that just told me to shut up? Did I ever tell you to shut up? Did I publicly question your competence or assumed you don't know anything about the matter discussed? You complain about the list being abusive and yet you are the one who distributes abuse, as it appears to me. I agree, this needs to be fixed. Please be part of the solution, not of the problem. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
