Hi Bob, > > Hey Seifeddine, > > On 10.5.2026 21:02:32, Seifeddine Gmati wrote: > > Hello Internals, > > I'd like to start the discussion on a new RFC adding bound-erased > generics types to PHP. > > Generic type parameters can be declared on classes, interfaces, > traits, functions, methods, closures, and arrow functions, with > bounds, defaults, and variance markers. Type parameters erase to their > bound at runtime; the pre-erasure form is preserved for Reflection and > consumed by static analyzers. > > - RFC: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/bound_erased_generic_types > - Implementation: https://github.com/php/php-src/pull/21969 > > Thanks, > Seifeddine. > > I have a bunch of questions and feedback: > > The requirement of ordering seems unnecessary to me - why would we not want > to be able to write <T: Box<U>, U: Box<T>>. Alternatingly recursive types are > not unheard of. Seems like an arbitrary restriction; and for compilation > purposes it only requires collecting all parameter names before evaluating > them. > > Your tests also show restrictions around intersection types, e.g. "Type > parameter T with bound mixed cannot be part of an intersection type" for > 'class Foo {} function x<T>(): T & Foo {}'. What's the motivation behind it? > This looks fairly natural to me: x() promises to return an instance of Foo > which also fulfills the bound T. Any child class of Foo which happens to > implement T will fulfill that contract. > > I would like to plead to skip the arity validation, except for "more > parameters than allowed": > - This inhibits graceful addition of generics - any library adding them > requires callers to immediately update all caller sites. > - It would also make addition of generics to Iterator classes etc. > completely uncontroversial. > - This would be more in line with PHP's general "no type is effectively the > highest possible bound" approach. I.e. "class A extends Box" and "class A > extends Box<mixed>" would be equivalent. > - This would also allow for future incremental runtime generics: you'd start > with <never> and as you call stuff with values, the type becomes broader. > > > This is the one thing which makes the whole RFC a non-starter for me if > required: > > Typing is optional in PHP! > > > Your tests show that this specific example is allowed, which strikes me as > odd. Why would we not check the arity here? > > class Container {} > function f(Container<int> $x): Container<string> { return $x; } > > > Diamond checks: > > Are these necessarily problematic? if you inherit Box<int> and Box<string>, > it simply means that the generic parameter, when placed in a contravariant > location will accept int|string, when placed into return or property types > it'll evaluate to never. > > If you disagree (that's possibly fine), a diamond covariant parameter should > be allowed in any case though, i.e. if Box<+T>, then an interface shall be > able to implement Box<string>, Box<int>. At least at a glance I don't find > such a test - if it already works, nice, then please just add the test! > > > Is class ABox implements Box<self> allowed, or do we need to write implements > Box<ABox>? > > > I'm also not sold on the turbofish syntax. I hate it in Rust, which I have to > write nearly daily. I forget these :: SO often. And then the Linter yells at > me and I correct it. > I understand that there are language limitations, in particular with the > array syntax, but honestly, I'd rather just have the parser shift in favor of > the existing syntax - for these rare conflicting cases forcing parenthesis > around the generic would be nicer, i.e. `[A<B, B>(C)]` would continue > carrying the meaning it has today, and we'd require writing `[(A<B, B>(C))]` > for that case. > > > I'm not quite sure if + and - are the proper choices. I'm more used to C# > myself with in and out being more obvious to me. I also admit that I > initially assumed "+" to be covariant - the sum of stuff accepted, and "-" > contravariant, subtracting what can be returned. But this particular > bikesheds color is not too important to me. > > > Otherwise, it's a pretty solid RFC which should be extensible with runtime > generics eventually. (In particular runtime generics on the class inheritance > level should be a no-brainer to add with the existing syntax.) > > > Thanks, > Bob
Thanks for the careful read. Going point by point. 1. Ordering of type parameter declarations The restriction is implementation-level, not fundamental. We register parameter names before we compile bounds, so allowing <T: Box<U>, U: Box<T>> is a "small" change. I left it out for the initial cut because I didn't want to bake mutually-recursive bounds into the spec without seeing whether anyone actually wants them in practice. If others agree this is worth having, I'm happy to drop the restriction before vote. 2. Type parameters in intersection types The check rejects an intersection where one side is a type parameter whose bound is `mixed`, because the erased form can be anything, including a scalar. Scalars don't intersect with anything, today. ( ref https://3v4l.org/mdvFA#v ) The error message in the test you saw is precisely about the unbounded case. If `T` is bound to an object-shaped type (`T: object`, `T: SomeInterface`, `T: SomeClass`, ...), then `T & Foo` is allowed. the erased form is guaranteed to be a legal intersection operand. So this is the same rule PHP already enforces today, just applied through the erased form. 3. Arity validation at consumer call sites I think this one is a misunderstanding. Arity validation only fires when the caller writes turbofish. Without turbofish, nothing changes at the call site: ``` function id<T>(T $v): T { return $v; } id($x); // no validation, no behavior change id::<int>($x); // arity + bound checked ``` So a library can add generic parameters to its public surface and every existing caller (none of which uses turbofish, because turbofish doesn't exist today) keeps working unchanged. The validation is opt-in at the use site. Same for `new` and method calls. This is exactly the graceful-addition story you're asking for. The existing tests demonstrate it. 4. Generic args on a non-generic class in a signature ``` class Container {} function f(Container<int> $x): Container<string> { return $x; } ``` This is accepted, and on purpose. PHP doesn't load classes from signatures, they load on use: https://3v4l.org/DnIKQ#v To validate arity at compile time, we'd have to load `Container`, which is a behavioral and performance regression. The cost of being strict here is much higher than the cost of being permissive. The same logic that already lets you reference an unloaded class in a signature lets you reference an unloaded class with type arguments in a signature. Validation happens once the class actually gets resolved at a use site (new, turbofish call, etc.). 5. Diamond inheritance The diamond check is necessary because methods get substituted with the type arguments at link time. Consider: ``` interface Box<T> { public function set(T $v): void; } class C implements Box<int>, Box<string> {} ``` After substitution, C must implement both `set(int): void` and `set(string): void`. PHP has no way to represent two methods with the same name and different signatures ( i.e overloading ), one of them has to win, and either choice silently breaks one of the parent contracts. Same problem in contravariant position. The check rejects this at link time rather than letting it produce a class that violates its own interface. For purely covariant slots you have a point, `get(): int` and `get(): string` could in principle be reconciled to `get(): int|string` (an LUB). The current implementation rejects all diamonds uniformly to keep linking deterministic and to avoid synthesizing union types during inheritance. Relaxing it for the covariant case is a reasonable follow-up, not something I want to bake in before vote. 6. `class ABox implements Box<self>` It is allowed and works as you'd expect. `self` resolves to the implementing class. ``` interface Box<+T> { public function get(): T; } class ABox implements Box<self> { public function get(): self { return $this; } } var_dump((new ABox)->get() instanceof ABox); // true ``` 7. Turbofish We have to disagree here. Turbofish: - has zero parser conflict with comparison operators in expression position - is uniform across `new`, function calls, method calls, FCCs, attributes - requires no context-sensitive disambiguation rule The alternative adds a rule a developer has to learn and apply at exactly the worst places (inside attributes, array expressions, ternaries). I'd rather pay the `::` tax than introduce a context-sensitive parser rule that bites people inside attributes specifically. Rust's choice was a forced one because of `<>` overload, and it's the right one for PHP too for the same reason. 8. + / - markers Picked because they don't require any new reserved words. `in`/`out` reads well but I'm not comfortable burning two keywords for a feature where two pieces of punctuation already do the job. On the "+ = sum of accepted" intuition: the convention here is the standard one from variance literature. `+` marks positions where the type can be widened (covariant, e.g., returns), `-` marks positions where it can be narrowed (contravariant, e.g., parameters). It also matches Hack, Scala, and Kotlin, so there is prior art the ecosystem already maps to. 9. Runtime generics Agreed entirely. The design is bound-erased *for now*. Nothing in it precludes a follow-up RFC adding reified generics at the inheritance level. That slice is the most useful and the cleanest to bolt on, the engine's type-parameter representation is already structured to support it. Cheers, Seifeddine.
