> On Jul 10, 2024, at 5:50 AM, Jordi Boggiano <j.boggi...@seld.be> wrote: > > On 2024-07-09 05:24, Mike Schinkel wrote: >> >> >> And this sentence is why I chose to reply to your message. That assumption >> itself blocks the needs of user-managed apps. >> >> (Did you happen to read my compare-and-contrast of user-managed vs. >> developer-managed apps from a few days ago?) >> >> I feel it is likely those who have never worked professionally in PHP on >> user-managed apps like WordPress — which I assume describes you accurately? >> — are probably just simply unaware of the problems that your assumptions >> cause for user-managed apps. And yes, some developers have no empathy for >> others who have different circumstances, but I honestly don't think you >> (Rowan) are in the category. >> > Just one note here: You keep saying user-managed apps but from what I can > tell, these problems really only apply to WordPress.
There are numerous others, such as Joomla, Phalcon, CMS Made Simple, TextPattern, OpenCart, ExpressionEngine and ProcessWire. But yes, the fact that WordPress has well over 50% marketshare of CMS and dwarfs all the others by well over an order of magnitude makes it appear that it only really applies to WordPress. Which, given the number of users for each, it kinda does. But that also begs the question if dismissing the PHP app with by-far the largest user base is the smartest approach? > There are others like Contao CMS who decided as a project they wanted > user-managed plugins but also wanted to rely on Composer and its ecosystem of > packages, and they made it happen [1] I just scoured the Contao website and the websites of a few of their 3rd party extensions and after quite a bit of detective work I found how Contao allows user-managed plugins, per se. They did not make it obvious on their site how to do it, though. First you have to download and install a `.phar file called Contao Manager[1] and install it on your server. Which yeah, a developer could do for an end-user, but most end-users are going to be blocked by this. Second, to use Contao Manager you have to have a PHP installation that allows using the functions proc_open()/proc_close() and allow_url_fopen() which AFAIK most responsible web hosts lock down on a shared server, which is the majority of WP hosting. The reason those are required is Contao Manager is just using Composer on the backend via CLI to install and manage plugins. So while yes, Contao does allow users to manage plugins, that was not what I meant when I made a distinction between user-managed and developer-managed apps. To me, Contao is squarely in the developer-managed app category. > So while I have some sympathy for all developers stuck maintaining WP sites, > and plugin authors not willing to do everything themselves and deciding to > bundle a vendor dir with Composer-installed dependencies.. It feels like > you're all kinda held hostage with the choices of the WordPress project, > which sucks for sure but saying it is unfixable is not helping. How are you envisioning it be fixed? If there are ways to fix things that do not require WordPress to make a change with major BC breakage nor require users upgrade web hosts to support dedicated features I would be very happy to find out what those are. And yes, to concur by also clarify, developers are held hostage by the *combined* choices of the WordPress and the PHP projects. It is kinda like being a kid with needs but also with feuding parents. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Mike [1] https://docs.contao.org/manual/en/installation/contao-manager/
