On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 12:07 AM Gorry Fairhurst <go...@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote: > > On 19/11/2024 23:58, lloyd.w...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > These proposed changes to UDP are thoughtprovoking. > > > > When UDP-Lite (RFC3828) was proposed, it was eventually shunted to its own > > IP protocol number, rather than risk messing up existing UDP > > implementations and semantics for even a very minor change. I gather that > > move to a different port was done very late in the process. > > > > The changes proposes in UDP options and in parcelling seem much much > > larger. Surely they should be treated as UDP-Lite was, and as UDP-alike but > > not as UDP, and given their own IP protocol number? > > > > thanks > > > > > > Lloyd Wood > > lloyd.w...@yahoo.co.uk > > I think Lloyd this set of therads is conflating two things: > > UDP Options has been developed over many years as a specification, and > (at least in tsvwg) is thought complete - we have evidence the method > works across existing networks and the WG has analysed whether we can > extend it safely. It's been through WGLC and should hopefully complete > AD review soon. It's an addition to UDP. > > IP parcels has been presented at the IETF, but as far as I know, hasn't > yet been adopted. I don't expect this to be ready for quite some time, > especially since it anticipates new devices on-path that have been > optimised for very large packets. In most parts of the network, we are > still struggling to support near 1500B. If packets are > 64 KB as > imagined, there will be many more conbsiderations, not least how > fragmentation is handled within the network and the relationship to loss > recovery, congestion control, etc. If the IETF decides this is an > important use-case, I see this as further out, with many things to decide. >
Gorry, "evidence" != "proof"-- I think this is one thing that UDP Options and IP Parcels have in common. Both of these are heavy on the protocol theory and anecdotes, but neither have really delved into the particular what's needed for viable implementation and the realities of deploying a new protocol at scale. For example, even interaction with something as simple as checksum offload, which is well established and pervasive across host implementations, remains an open issue. If IP parcels is pursued in IETF, I really hope we get running code and deployment experience ASAP-- that's especially important since the goal of the protocol seems to be performance improvement and the only way we can prove performance improvement is by running the code and getting the numbers. In this regard, I think QUIC might be the poster child for how a new protocol should be developed-- even before the RFC was published there was open source implementation and significant deployment. Tom > Best wishes, > > Gorry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday 20 November 2024 at 05:12:00 GMT+11, to...@strayalpha.com > > <to...@strayalpha.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, all, > > > > I have not investigated this issue. Any new UDP option proposal would need > > to be evaluated in detail AND would need to follow the design requirements > > in the UDP options doc. > > > > Further, I would urge any option that is per-IP packet to be an IP option; > > UDP options are intended for user endpoints, not the (existing) protocol > > subsystem per se. I don’t yet understand whether the proposed parcel > > parameters should be an IP option or UDP option, but UDP options are NOT > > intended as a place you can put info that you don’t want to or can’t put in > > IP options per se. IP options are per IP packet; UDP options are per UDP > > message. We’d need to understand why parcels are fiddling with UDP option > > space - which may already be used by the UDP endpoints. > > > > Joe > > > > > > — > > Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist > > www.strayalpha.com > > > > > >> On Nov 14, 2024, at 4:54 PM, C. M. Heard <he...@pobox.com> wrote: > >> > >> Fred and WG participants, > >> > >> I have finally freed up some cycles to read > >> draft-templin-6man-parcels2-14, and I have found some issues with it that > >> need to be addressed with respect to its handling of UDP. > >> > >> The big one -- if I have correctly understood what I have read -- is that > >> it's possible for a single parcel of a parcellated UDP packet to be turned > >> into a stand-alone UDP packet (see Section 7.1) and delivered to an end > >> system as such (see Section 7.4). That packet would contain a Parcel > >> Parameters UDP Option to tell the endpoint host that the packet is a > >> parcel and not a complete UDP datagram, but the option kind is taken from > >> the SAFE option space (KIND = 127; see > >> draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options#section-10). Legacy endpoints that do not > >> understand UDP options will ignore that SAFE option and will deliver the > >> parcel as if it were a complete UDP datagram. That, to my mind, is > >> completely unacceptable. Unlike TCP, which is a byte-stream protocol in > >> which segment boundaries have no meaning for the upper layer, UDP is a > >> datagram protocol in which message boundaries are meaningful to the upper > >> layer. The protocol has a contract with the upper layer to deliver a > >> message as it was submitted or not at all. Delivering a parcel in a manner > >> that can be misinterpreted as a complete datagram violates that contract. > >> > >> It is possible to repair this defect by making the Parcel Parameters > >> Option, or something with equivalent functionality, into an UNSAFE option. > >> My suggestion would be to define an UNSAFE version of the existing FRAG > >> option (see draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options#section-11.4) -- let's call it > >> UFRAG -- that would allow for packet sizes greater than 65,535 bytes. The > >> same option could be used to send singleton advanced jumbo packets as > >> atomic fragments. This would avoid any need to modify the base UDP and UDP > >> Options specifications. > >> > >> Additionally: during the review of draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options, Joe Touch > >> correctly pointed out that RFC 2765 (and its predecessor RFC 2147) failed > >> to note that it updated RFC 768. Similar concerns apply to TCP. If this > >> draft foes forward, it should note that it updates the UDP and TCP > >> specifications, and it should get buy-in from TSVWG and TCPM. > >> > >> Thanks and regards, > >> > >> Mike Heard > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 3:51 PM C. M. Heard <he...@pobox.com> wrote: > >>> Fred, > >>> > >>> I currently hold the editing pen for the changes to the UDP Options draft > >>> that have been requested prior to the shepherd report, and my intention > >>> is to remain silent about how, if at all, IP Parcels and Advanced Jumbos > >>> (AJs) will support UDP Options. > >>> > >>> I'll provide comments on the IP Parcels and Advanced Jumbos work at a > >>> later date, when I have spare intellectual cycles to fully comprehend the > >>> contents of draft-templin-6man-parcels2. At this point I must confess > >>> that, like Brian, I do not understand how a receiver will locate the > >>> options trailer in the case of an IP Payload Length exceeding 65535. Like > >>> Joe, I think it would be better to put the options just after the UDP > >>> header and make a new UNSAFE option to delimit the position where the > >>> options end and the user data begins.. But that discussion (and the > >>> corresponding update to the UDP options draft) can occur when it is ripe; > >>> IMO that is not the case at this time. > >>> > >>> Respectfully, > >>> > >>> Mike Heard > >>> > >>> On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 3:07 PM Templin (US), Fred L > >>> <Fred.L.Templin=40boeing....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> IP parcels and Advanced Jumbos (AJs) of all sizes ranging from 1 to 2^32 > >>>> are now eligible > >>>> for using UDP options. This is just one way in which they offer a better > >>>> service than RFC2675 > >>>> Jumbograms, but there are also many others. > >>>> > >>>> Joe, you can either note this in your draft or just leave it be and let > >>>> my draft do an > >>>> “updates UDP options”. > >>>> > >>>> Thank you - Fred > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com> > >>>> Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2024 2:20 AM > >>>> To: Gorry (erg) <go...@erg.abdn.ac.uk> > >>>> Cc: Joe Touch <to...@strayalpha.com>; Templin (US), Fred L > >>>> <fred.l.temp...@boeing.com>; Tim Chown <tim.ch...@jisc.ac.uk>; Internet > >>>> Area <Int-area@ietf.org>; IPv6 List <i...@ietf.org>; tsvwg IETF list > >>>> <ts...@ietf.org> > >>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [tsvwg] Re: UDP options [was IP Parcels and > >>>> Advanced Jumbos (AJs)] > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> EXT email: be mindful of links/attachments. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> That works for me.. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> (via tiny screen & keyboard)Regards, Brian Carpenter > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, 28 Sept 2024, 19:08 Gorry (erg), <go...@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> See below> On 28 Sep 2024, at 04:05, Brian E Carpenter > >>>>> <brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com> wrote:> > Joe,> On 28-Sep-24 03:13, > >>>>> to...@strayalpha.com wrote:>>>> On Sep 27, 2024, at 7:58 AM, Templin > >>>>> (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin=40boeing....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:>>> > >>>>> >>>> Indeed. But if sendmsg() and recvmsg() can and do generate RFC2675 > >>>>> packets, it means that any discussion of obsoleting RFC2675 should > >>>>> be>>>> off the table.>>> >>> No one that I know of has suggested > >>>>> obsoleting RFC2675 - my documents do not say "obsoletes" (nor even > >>>>> "updates”).>> That approach to UDP jumbo grams is incompatible with UDP > >>>>> options.>> And yes, there was a proposal to move that RFC to > >>>>> historic:>> Jones, T., G. Fairhurst, "Change Status of RFC 2675 to > >>>>> Historic," draft-jones-6man-historic-rfc2675, May 2019.>> We COULD have > >>>>> a new option with a longer length, but that’s not in our baseline > >>>>> draft.> > Wouldn't that be tricky, because the options follow the whole > >>>>> payload as I understand it? So a JumboUDPgram has to be received in > >>>>> full, however big it is, before the option saying that it's a jumbo can > >>>>> be received and interpreted.> > Where the udp-options draft says:> >>> > >>>>> The technique has been proposed for deprecation [Jo19].> > I think > >>>>> you'd better change it to something like:> > The technique is known to > >>>>> be in active use in special situations, so cannot reasonably be > >>>>> deprecated. However, users of this technique cannot simultaneously use > >>>>> UDP options.> > Brian> I do not think the I-D needs to say anything > >>>>> about the deployment status of jumbograms, that another topic.I suggest > >>>>> if people wish, we just say that users of this technique can or cannot > >>>>> simultaneously use UDP options.Gorry > > > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > i...@ietf.org > List Info: https://mailman3.ietf.org/mailman3/lists/i...@ietf.org/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Int-area mailing list -- int-area@ietf.org To unsubscribe send an email to int-area-le...@ietf.org
