Yippee. On 23/05/2021 04:54, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Your "Yes, and COND is easy to understand; it's also unnatural in that it > requires using the brain as well as the fingers." is a fantasy that has no > rational connection to what I wrote. Sean Spicer would be proud of you. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > ________________________________________ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [[email protected]] on behalf of > CM Poncelet [[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 11:30 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS > Technologies > > As in "Thank you for putting words in my mouth" and "Yes, and COND is > easy to understand; it's also unnatural in that itrequires using the > brain as well as the fingers. OK, got it. Thanks for explaining?" - or > what other "I'd rather speak for myself. Alternative facts?" > > > On 22/05/2021 04:04, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> Thank you for putting words in my mouth. However, I'd rather speak for >> myself. Alternative facts? >> >> >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [[email protected]] on behalf of >> CM Poncelet [[email protected]] >> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 10:43 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS >> Technologies >> >> A well-known Bank I was working at, as a systems programming consultant >> (in '99,) asked me to install custompac. So I did that and checked it >> out. It was so full of errors, including that the user enter the MCAT >> password and the hlq of PARMLIB (and of whatever else,) for it to >> function, never mind its then allocating dozens of CYLs and (if memory >> serves) 100's of directory blocks to SAMPLIB which, after the install, >> contained no more than a dozen or so of members - and then >> underestimated the DASD space and directory blocks required for SMPPTFIN >> and whatever the DLIB/TLIB loadlibs were, causing S*37 abends when it >> was executed. I pointed this out to the Bank and suggested that I write >> my own version of it. They gave me the go-ahead. My version then did >> everything custompac was supposed to do, including updating all its >> "logs" and datasets etc. and being 100% compatible with custompac - but >> requiring only two inputs from the user, with no MCAT password or >> PARMLIB etc. hlqs needed - and it genned all the correct SMP/E JCL to >> install/update the Bank's products. >> >> Later on, IBM kept on asking me to explain to them - and for weeks - how >> I had 'fixed' their custompac, so they could tell their developers in >> Canada what to do. >> >> Yes, and COND is easy to understand; it's also unnatural in that it >> requires using the brain as well as the fingers. OK, got it. Thanks for >> explaining. >> >> Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) >> >> >> >> On 22/05/2021 01:23, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> When did custompack stop having SMP steps? >>> >>> Yes, COND is easy to understand; it's also unnatural. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> on behalf of >>> CM Poncelet <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 7:01 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS >>> Technologies >>> >>> "I don't like it when IBM takes away tools" - and IBM stopped publishing >>> system control block DSECTs with ESA, thereby preventing sysprogs from >>> modifying its OSes (or so it thought.) >>> >>> Next step (perhaps in 10+ years' time) will be to withdraw support of >>> native SMP/E (and thus of CBPDO/CBIPO installs) and enforce using >>> custompac (or custompak, whatever it is now called) instead. That would >>> be a "progressive and continual stultification ofmainframe systems >>> programming" and of IBM's progressively taking over full control of how >>> customers' systems are installed, managed and maintained - as is already >>> done by Micro$oft. >>> >>> How "COND=" works is trivial and needs no 'help' from "IF/THEN" >>> statements. "COND=" just means "execute the step *unless* any of the >>> COND= parms is true." Anyone who has difficulty understanding even >>> *that* should not be working with mainframes. >>> >>> Chris Poncelet (r) >>> >>> >>> >>> On 21/05/2021 23:02, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>>>> ESA's OCO? >>>> What's that in reference to? >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> on behalf >>>> of CM Poncelet <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 4:22 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS >>>> Technologies >>>> >>>> ESA's OCO? >>>> >>>> On 20/05/2021 08:43, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>>>> Progress is also not made by pretending that a blunt tool is sharp just >>>>> because you're used to it. COND= is a blunt tool, and IF/THEN puts a >>>>> bandage over some, but not all, of its ugliness. >>>>> >>>>> What's wrong with taking advantage of skeletons and such? Yes, I have >>>>> been known to hand craft an SMP/E job when the templates didn't suit my >>>>> needs, but what's wrong with taking advantage of them when it saves me >>>>> time? >>>>> >>>>> I don't like it when IBM takes away tools, but that's not the same as >>>>> providing new tools that I can ignore when they don't suit the task at >>>>> hand. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>>>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [[email protected]] on behalf >>>>> of CM Poncelet [[email protected]] >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 9:50 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: JCL COND vs IF/THEN - Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS >>>>> Technologies >>>>> >>>>> Again and with all due respect, progress is made not by blunting the >>>>> tool but by sharpening the user. >>>>> >>>>> "IF/THEN" does not handle all boolean AND/OR/NAND/XOR and >>>>> steps-not-executed conditions. >>>>> >>>>> Let not those who cannot master playing the violin demand that the >>>>> violin be made more easy, but let them try playing the banjo instead. >>>>> >>>>> And SMP/E? In the 1980's it was 'recommended' to use its dialogs. In the >>>>> late 90's, its Custom-Pak etc. became 'de rigueur' and 'de facto'. And >>>>> yet I continued to use only native SMP/E - and did so daily to track >>>>> down and fix PTFEs etc. etc. >>>>> >>>>> Who gains from this progressive and continual stultification of >>>>> mainframe systems programming? Is it not Windows for mainframes? >>>>> >>>>> As they say, "Use it or lose it." >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Chris Poncelet (r) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 19/05/2021 01:55, Nash, Jonathan S. wrote: >>>>>> Once I learned of the IF/THEN statements for >>>>>> JCL I never used COND= again. IF/THEN is much >>>>>> easier to use and to explain to new people. >>>>>> I have seen many people code COND statements >>>>>> incorrectly because they did not acually >>>>>> understand how they worked. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> On Behalf >>>>>> Of CM Poncelet >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 8:19 PM >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS >>>>>> Technologies >>>>>> >>>>>> With all due respect, anyone who has difficulty coding JCL COND= >>>>>> statements should consider *not* working with IBM mainframe systems. >>>>>> >>>>>> All boolean conditional execution steps can be handled using only COND= >>>>>> statements. I submitted a paper on this & it was published in >>>>>> "Computing" in 1989. I would but cannot attach it, as uploading PDF >>>>>> files to this discussion list is not permitted. >>>>>> >>>>>> No sysprog worth his salt has ever had a problem with coding JCL COND= >>>>>> statements. >>>>>> >>>>>> Likewise IF/THEN statements belong in "JCL for dummies" - as do symbols >>>>>> in JCL and SYSIN. Ditto IF/THEN <etc.> in assembler. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Poncelet (r) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>> On 18/05/2021 14:02, Charles Mills wrote: >>>>>>> Yeah, and IF/THEN is slightly better than COND= >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also symbols in SYSIN data. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Charles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Horein >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:35 AM >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would argue JCL got better when symbols were allowed! :-) >>>>>>> https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=es-symlist-parameter >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 10:46 PM Charles Mills <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve, let me wade in here and suggest some big picture. I think SHARE >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> such is great for the details. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What has changed since 2001? An idiosyncratic, IMHO list: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - In 2001 SNA was yielding to TCP/IP. That transition has continued. An >>>>>>>> awful lot of mainframe connectivity is now TCP/IP. Lots and lots of >>>>>>>> Internet connectivity to the mainframe. >>>>>>>> - Security is huge. Encryption is hot. Zero Trust is the buzzword of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> month. >>>>>>>> - Everything is of course bigger. Z hardware goes up to what? 4TB real? >>>>>>>> Someone will correct me if that is wrong. >>>>>>>> - Tape drives have pretty much gone away. They live on as virtual, >>>>>>>> emulated-on-DASD tape drives. >>>>>>>> - The Cloud. Read any airline magazine for the latest. >>>>>>>> - Remember VM? It was pretty moribund in 2001. It has found new life >>>>>>>> hosting thousands of Linux instances. Yes, Linux running like a champ >>>>>>>> on Z >>>>>>>> hardware. Mainframe Linux is huge. You can run Linux in a region of >>>>>>>> MVS in >>>>>>>> a "container." >>>>>>>> - Speaking of which, there is a Z box that will not IPL z/OS! It is >>>>>>>> called >>>>>>>> Linux One. It's a mainframe with a bit hobbled somewhere such that >>>>>>>> mainframe operating systems will not IPL, only Linux. >>>>>>>> - Lots of new features in core MVS but you would fully recognize the >>>>>>>> environment. If you sit down at a TSO/ISPF session it will seem like >>>>>>>> nothing has changed. JCL has not gotten any better (or any worse, >>>>>>>> thankfully). >>>>>>>> - Remember the issue of "above the (24-bit) line"? It is still there, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> pretty much in the background. The new thing is data and execution >>>>>>>> "above >>>>>>>> the (2GB/31-bit) bar." Lots of software products are exploiting data >>>>>>>> above >>>>>>>> 2GB, and code can even run there, with lots of limitations. >>>>>>>> AMODE/RMODE 64. >>>>>>>> - IBM JES3 is dead. Long live Phoenix JES3 plus. IBM ditched JES3, and >>>>>>>> Phoenix picked it up. >>>>>>>> - More emphasis on high level languages. Hardware design is being >>>>>>>> driven >>>>>>>> by the Java folks and the compiler folks. Lots of new hardware >>>>>>>> instructions. Hardware cycle times are not getting any faster, but >>>>>>>> instructions do more per cycle. Caching getting more sophisticated and >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> critical. The concept of "how long does an LR take" has totally >>>>>>>> disappeared. It is a question with no answer other than "it depends." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyone else want to weigh in? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Charles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Gibney, Dave >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 6:58 PM >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would suggest SHARE presentations and perhaps Marna Walle's migration >>>>>>>> guides >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Estle >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 6:42 PM >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Subject: Best catch up resources for MVS / ZOS Technologies >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone in Mainframe Land, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've been out of the mainframe world since about 2001, but spent the >>>>>>>> prior >>>>>>>>> 20 years immersed in that world working with everything from MVS/370 >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> MVS/ESA and VM, performance and capacity planning disciplines across a >>>>>>>>> variety of situations in the IT Services and consulting spaces. I, >>>>>>>>> am, >>>>>>>> now as a >>>>>>>>> "IT Infrastructure Engineer- IBM z/OS Mainframe Engineer" after >>>>>>>>> nearly 20 >>>>>>>>> years of other activities (Project Mgmt, entrepreneur, etc) am about >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> potentially come back into a new mainframe role and I need to catch >>>>>>>>> up as >>>>>>>>> quickly as possible. Any suggestions on ways to fill in the gaps for >>>>>>>> ZOS, ZVM, >>>>>>>>> hardware, performance, etc? Bottom line I'm looking for that gap >>>>>>>> education >>>>>>>>> to as quickly as possible get up to speed with changes in platforms >>>>>>>> since 2001. >>>>>>>>> If prefer to call - all my info is below. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Steve Estle >>>>>>>>> 303-604-0925 >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>> . >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> . >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> . >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > . >
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