Good points, we definitely need to make it easier to contribute, be it just a least resistance path for making a test.
For what it's worth, when I started contributing more seriosly, the "tipping point" which transformed me from an average user to a fanatical contributor, was to understand how the testsuite worked. I know it's not hard at all, but I was assuming that it was hard and so I hadn't looked as I was assuming that I would not be in an easy position to provide a working test. For example, I assumed I'd need all the supported databases setup. Let's not forget that most users don't ever start Hibernate directly but get a Session via some framework, so this indeed requires some research. I love Martijn's suggestion to upload an archetype with each release; our first attempt could be very simple, then we take it from there and maybe provide various mapped entities, a JPA and a native version... Sanne On 7 April 2014 22:26, Brett Meyer <brme...@redhat.com> wrote: > But Martijn, you're still missing my main points. > > "...awaiting a response from the core team..." > "...without any evidence of a core member looking at the issue..." > "...your users..." > > You're still thinking of this community in a proprietary product sense. It's > not. The core team is small and focused. All individual contributors work > on what they're most interested in or the biggest priority in their > environment. If you have an issue that's important/urgent for you, then take > a stab at fixing it! If everyone had that attitude within open source > communities, some incredible things would result. Directly emailing the core > team members, complaining that they haven't given your specific issue enough > attention isn't going to accomplish anything. But that's certainly not to > say that the core team is hands off. We all work hard. Really hard. And if > something critical comes up, it's usually pounced on promptly. > > Before I started tackling the state of our JIRA instance, there were over 3k > unresolved issues. Like I've already mentioned all over the place, that's > not indicative of quality. It simply stems from a complex, 10+ year old > project with thousands of users. When that many issues are open, it is > *impossible* to identify what's still an issue. Going through them > one-by-one is not even remotely reasonable. The policies we're trying to > enforce are not simply to assist the core team, but the community as a whole. > Imagine someone who is interested in getting started with contributing to > ORM. If they pull up JIRA, how in the world would they know where to start? > > I will most definitely take a look at your project in HHH-9105 and roll > something out for everyone to use as needed. Thanks for that. I'm > definitely up for any more *constructive* ideas/feedback. > > Brett Meyer > Red Hat, Hibernate ORM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martijn Dashorst" <martijn.dasho...@gmail.com> > To: "Brett Meyer" <brme...@redhat.com> > Cc: "Hibernate" <hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org> > Sent: Monday, April 7, 2014 4:29:38 PM > Subject: Re: "Stale" Hibernate issues > > I know that open source projects are run by volunteers. I appreciate the > efforts folks put in, even if they don't get to look at my issue-especially > when I can work around the issue with a fugly solution, awaiting a response > from the core team. > > I don't find my issue super duper important: we were able to work around > it, and we check with every major release if someone has considered solving > it-being disappointed, having a bitter laugh, and continue with our day to > day job. > > My issue with the treatment is that after five years of neglect, without > any evidence of a core member looking at the issue, it gets the "give us a > test case or we will close it" treatment, combined with the "we don't want > to look arrogant" attitude. > > There's a quid-pro-quo: if you ask your users to do something for you, you > have to give something in return. As a user I have done quite a lot: > described the issue I found in detail, provided mappings. Multiple users > have reported the same behaviour, even in a 4.0-beta. > > Given that nobody from the core hibernate team has ever commented on the > issue, I do remain with my opinion that the issue has not been taken > seriously, giving me-a user who has put effort into reporting with proper > detail what the issue is-the willies of ever reporting an issue with > Hibernate again. > > So I have gone about and had to shave a yak or two to actually reproduce > the issue at hand (creating a hibernate project, setting up a database, > finding the magical incantations to start up a Hibernate configuration), > fixing the logging, etc) taking up my free evening I could have spent on my > own open source project, or socialising with my wife, or etc. All of this > probably would have taken a core dev about 2 minutes given that you have > the environment setup and know your testing framework in and out. > > So I will comment on HHH-3930 that the issue is still present in Hibernate > 4.3.5, and also create a new issue with an empty test case which you can > incorporate into your bug reporting template as a test case builder for > folks reporting bugs. I hope you will incorporate this into your project > and save everybody hours of time. > > See https://hibernate.atlassian.net/browse/HHH-9105 for the setup. It uses > one deprecated API (config.buildSessionFactory()), but I figure you can > improve upon this easily. > > This is also easily converted to a Maven archetype that can be generated > with your normal release cycle. You can then create a online wizard that > allows folks to quickly generate a quick start based on a specific version > of Hibernate. See for example > http://wicket.apache.org/start/quickstart.htmlfor such a page, and > https://github.com/apache/wicket/tree/master/archetypes/quickstart for the > implementation of that archetype. > > Martijn > > > > > On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Brett Meyer <brme...@redhat.com> wrote: > >> Hi Martijn, I'm CC'ing the mailing list -- there are a few misconceptions >> I'd like to clear up for everyone. >> >> First and foremost, statements like "But nobody from the Hibernate has >> ever taken a look" are frankly frustrating. Hibernate is an open source >> project, not a proprietary product with separated groups of consumers and >> producers. We all have our own interests and priorities. If HHH-3930 is >> important for someone, pull requests or patches would be fantastic and much >> appreciated by the community! >> >> Your point argues against itself. There are so many issues that deserve >> the community's attention, and HHH-3930 is no different from the rest. But >> due to the sheer amount of open tickets, it was getting impossible to sort >> through them all. We have to do *something* to narrow it down, and this >> was the best solution we could find. >> >> Everyone, please keep in mind that if an issue is still valid on ORM 4, >> simply say so in a comment. I'm more than happy to re-open them on a >> case-by-case basis. An aggressive approach was necessary -- simply letting >> thousands of tickets sit there is, imho, much worse. >> >> Regarding the development of test cases, we've said from the beginning >> that, although we certainly prefer runnable cases (either standalone or >> extending an existing unit test), I've always thought that enough detail in >> the description (entities, mappings, applicable settings, and code >> snippets) were perfectly acceptable and definitely making a big attempt at >> helping out. That hasn't changed. However, several people have mentioned >> wishing for a template project to use in creating standalone reproducers -- >> that's a great idea. I'm planning on putting one together soon and will >> share it. >> >> Brett Meyer >> Red Hat, Hibernate ORM >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Martijn Dashorst" <martijn.dasho...@gmail.com> >> To: brme...@redhat.com >> Sent: Monday, April 7, 2014 2:41:20 PM >> Subject: "Stale" Hibernate issues >> >> Dear Brett, >> >> I understand the necessity of sorting out stale issues in a large project >> as Hibernate, but blindly shafting folks that are waiting 5 years for a >> proper response from the hibernate team is not the way to go. >> >> Case in point: HHH-3930 has been open for 5 years, has provided a clear >> description and code for two entities afflicted entities. But nobody from >> the Hibernate has ever taken a look and commented on it for specific >> information. >> >> Only canned responses from mass updates have been provided. >> >> I urge you to actually look at this issue and give proper feedback on what >> is needed for it to be considered. >> >> If the information is incomplete, or the report unclear, say so. >> >> IMO you can only require folks adding a test case if you have a decent >> guide of how to write one. Provide a maven archetype for it. >> >> Requiring folks to have to checkout the hibernate project, figure out the >> coding guidelines, having to peruse the test cases to figure out what to do >> is really stretching it. >> >> You state that you don't want to come across as arrogant, but from my >> standpoint, the current actions actually make me wish I never had filed the >> issue and just work around it, polluting my model and never going to file a >> bug report with Hibernate ever again. >> >> Martijn >> > > > > -- > Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best: http://wicketinaction.com > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
