On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:04 PM Jon Reiter <jonrei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok. I live in Singapore. Here is a statement from the Singapore Police > Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or > risk being deported: > https://www.facebook.com/singaporepoliceforce/posts/10157358158324408 > Is that concrete enough? > No. The scenario you outlined was that you might link to golang.org or show it in a talk and have that be interpreted as political fundraising. The post is specifically concerned with foreigners organizing public protests. That's basically the polar opposite to "a page I linked to for unrelated reasons also contained a banner-ad for a political non-profit". This is a Ship of Theseus <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui-ArJRqEvU> argument. You"re replacing "linking to a site containing a banner" with "political advocacy" and that again with "organizing a public protest" and you are replacing "there's a warning about doing X" with "doing X will cause you real and immanent danger" and you're replacing "Fundraising for a social justice movement" with "interfering in a foreign election". And you're pretending that it's still the same argument. But it's not. What I'm skeptical on is the specific claim, that this banner will land you, or anyone, in trouble when linking to golang.org. I would not want any banners that could appear to be political to appear on > my screen while giving a public talk. > Then don't show them. You can show screenshots and censor them, for example. But "I don't want to show this piece of info" can hardly be translated to "you shouldn't show it". I do not want any such banners anywhere near any documentation I might send > to a colleague or client. I want 0 risk of these things happening. I do > not think it is fair to equate this to orcs and wizards. > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:55 PM Axel Wagner <axel.wagner...@googlemail.com> > wrote: > >> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:56 AM Jon Reiter <jonrei...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic >>> place)" or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems. >>> >> >> It's also not difficult to imagine Orcs and wizarding schools and >> intergalactic star flight. Doesn't make any of them real. >> Are you aware of the optics of responding to a question about real >> precedence with a different imagined problem? >> >> >>> This banner differs only in degree of risk. >>> >> >> Quantitative differences easily become qualitative ones. Being pricked by >> a needle or getting knifed in the stomach only differ by degree of >> stabbing. But if I told you that my doctor is trying to kill me, you'd >> rightly point out that that's an imagined problem. >> >> >>> It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount. >>> >> >> Assuming that was true, this non-0 amount would still needed to be >> weighed against the benefits and in this case, the very real plight of >> people of color across the world. Who are in very, painfully real danger to >> their lives. >> To make that tradeoff, at the very least, we'd need to know the actual >> amount. But so far, the amount appears to be an actual zero. >> >> This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments. It's about >>> not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation. >>> >> >> It is, for some people. In fact, it seems to me the only "concern" that >> was brought up by multiple people. Even if it might not be what this is >> about for you, you should at least still be aware that you are supporting >> that as well. >> >> As an aside it is not nice to be told my concerns are trivial. I'm >>> concerned. I'm not the only person on this list that has expressed >>> concerns. That should be enough for the issue to be taken seriously >>> (regardless of outcome). >>> >> >> I disagree with this logic. There are millions of anti-vaxxers or >> flat-earthers. Doesn't mean their claims and concerns have any merit. >> >> >>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 17:23 Axel Wagner <axel.wagner...@googlemail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you >>>> have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a >>>> page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have >>>> some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here. >>>> >>>> Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I >>>> believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate >>>> around how what you may say is violating them. NBut just because it's laws >>>> I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about >>>> real. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:33 AM Jon Reiter <jonrei...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a >>>>> significant number of people. It is not hard to imagine a setting in many >>>>> major cities around a world where a banner like this appearing during a >>>>> presentation or training session could cause problems. I am not the >>>>> source >>>>> or enforcer of such rules -- but I am responsible for ensuring I comply >>>>> with them. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know where you live or work or travel but is in insensitive to >>>>> dismiss this as a non-issue for everyone that uses go. To the extent it >>>>> is >>>>> an issue it's a local legal issue. In that way the go code of conduct >>>>> isn't the primary concern. >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:48 PM Axel Wagner < >>>>> axel.wagner...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve >>>>>> as a testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the >>>>>> police. >>>>>> Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for >>>>>> a foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you >>>>>> live >>>>>> in the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by >>>>>> any >>>>>> judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project >>>>>> page >>>>>> is the least of your worries. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of >>>>>> conduct as not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood >>>>>> that. Just pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire >>>>>> community" is pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:29 AM Jon Reiter <jonrei...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages >>>>>>> at events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause. >>>>>>> And that's illegal in much of the world. Per google, google operates in >>>>>>> 219 countries. This could force community members to argue in any of at >>>>>>> least 219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law. Not the >>>>>>> golang >>>>>>> code of conduct, local law. That is a decision that impacts the entire >>>>>>> community. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM 'Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts < >>>>>>> golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all >>>>>>>> actions >>>>>>>> are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*. >>>>>>>> Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political >>>>>>>> action and what doesn't varies between people. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, 2020-06-14 at 16:44 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >>>>>>>> > Sam Whited <s...@samwhited.com>: >>>>>>>> > > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human >>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>> > > It >>>>>>>> > > is a social issue. It is a justice issue. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> > belong. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "golang-nuts" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d396661a24dd31c0f97842cd69dd939437bf2e4c.camel%40kortschak.io >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "golang-nuts" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CABZtUk6QNmqm0JyG8N7YmYE98V_THupKZUuar%3Df7jx_WwJEWmg%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/CABZtUk6QNmqm0JyG8N7YmYE98V_THupKZUuar%3Df7jx_WwJEWmg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "golang-nuts" group. 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