When I said price editor, I meant the price database. I've been assuming that the rates there are used for proposing rates on new transactions.
Anyway, it sort of goes to my point that I think the documentation is less than clear for those of us who have regular transactions in multiple currencies due to the vagaries of where we're standing when we make a purchase, even while it's probably perfectly clear for those whose foreign currency transactions are limited to holidays. I didn't know that about reports. I'm still learning clearly. Jeff On 20/08/2019 12:20, David Carlson wrote: > I thought this thread was discussing only transactions, not reports. > Jeff, the Price Editor does not come in to play in individual > transactions. Transactions are self-contained with whatever exchange > rates happen therein. > > The Price editor exists for reports that are not tied to individual > transactions, but to aggregate values, either of assets or of incomes > and expenses. Since some reports are supposed to be frozen at some > instant of time, say, at the end of a reporting period, and others are > supposed to accumulate over an interval of time, there is more than > one way to perform the aggregation appropriate to a particular report. > > Discussion of that feature is often heated, sometimes found to be > incorrect for this or that example, but not to be confused with > individual transactions that are fixed as a unit. > > > David Carlson > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 2:36 AM Jeff Abrahamson <j...@p27.eu > <mailto:j...@p27.eu>> wrote: > > It's not entirely unuseful that some of the discussion happens here on > the user list. User input may be of interest. > > I'll add only one point, which is that I think the current English > language documentation doesn't explain as well as it might how to use > gnucash in the presence of more than one currency. If I may say > it more > bluntly, it says it in a way that strikes me as useful to > Americans who > use non-local currency quite occasionally and less to Europeans > near the > UK or Swiss borders who use multiple currencies regularly. (I can't > speak for the rest of the world.) > > Just one tiny and minor example. The docs say that the price editor > will store only one FX rate per day for a currency pair. Now > suppose I > purchase a croissant in the morning and a tea in the afternoon, > both on > my bank card, and my card says that the I paid x1 and x2 in GBP > respectively and they were debited from my account as y1 and y2 in > EUR. > That constitutes two different exchange rates in one day. (This is an > experiment I've been meaning to try, but based on the documentation, > assuming it all works, it still won't leave me confident that > there's a > contract between me and gnucash to behave this way.) > > All that said, I still have to read up on the trading features (wasn't > at all obvious to me before this thread that this was relevant for FX > flow) and do a few experiments to understand it all better. > > Jeff > > > On 20/08/2019 00:36, Mike Alexander wrote: > > I’ve been thinking for a while about how the register could be > changed to better handle multiple currency transactions with > trading accounts turned on. Back when I implemented trading > accounts I knew this was a problem. However at that time it was > expected that the Register2 rewrite of the register code would > make the old register code obsolete so I didn’t worry about it too > much. This is clearly no longer a valid assumption. > > > > It seems to me that the simplest solution, and one that might > work reasonably well, is to make it possible (via a view option) > to switch any register into the format used for non-currency > registers where there are separate columns for shares, price, and > value for each split. The labels would need to be changed for > currency splits since “shares” becomes the value in the split’s > currency, “price” becomes exchange rate, and "value" remains the > value in the transaction currency. Getting all the details right > might be tricky, but this seems to have possibilities. > > > > The current code shows only one of those three values, and which > one depends on whether trading accounts are turned on. If they > are on it shows the value in the split’s currency. If off, it > shows the value in the transaction's currency. This adds still > more confusion to the situation. A simple change would be to make > it always show the value in the split’s currency. At least then > there wouldn’t be this confusion about what is being shown. I > didn’t do this at the time because one of the goals was to make > GnuCash work identical to the way it worked before if trading > accounts were turned off. > > > > If I get some free time I might try to play around with this > idea and see where it goes. If anyone else thinks this might work > and wants to take a crack at it, be my guest. My time for > software development is very limited these days. > > > > Mike > > > > PS: this probably should be moved to the Dev list if someone > wants to continue the discussion. > > > >> On Aug 16, 2019, at 2:12 PM, John Ralls <jra...@ceridwen.us > <mailto:jra...@ceridwen.us>> wrote: > >> > >> It's a difference in the way that the register works with or > without trading accounts. If trading accounts are turned off then > the register displays all splits converted to that register > account's currency. If they're on then it displays each split in > its own account's currency, with symbols for all but the current > register's currency. > >> > >> When dealing with multiple currencies "balance" can adopt > different meanings. GnuCash requires that a transaction must > balance in the transaction currency, which is generally the one > for the account in whose register the transaction was created (or > the first parent account denominated in a currency if the register > is for a non-currency account). Since in a currency register the > transaction currency value and the exchange rate between the > register currency and transaction currency are hidden that can be > difficult, especially in split view where the user is responsible > for getting the (possibly invisible) values right. The more > currencies involved in the transaction the harder it gets. > >> > >> Regards, > >> John Ralls > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 16, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Jeff Abrahamson <j...@p27.eu > <mailto:j...@p27.eu>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Thanks, that's great, I'll have a play with that after work. > >>> > >>> Two points concern me: > >>> > >>> 1. I don't see currency symbols in my registers. Is this a > setting? > >>> > >>> 2. I've been taught in accounting that transactions must > balance, and > >>> so I was expecting to see the GBP register all in GBP, the CHF > register > >>> all in CHF, and the EUR register all in EUR. That is, if one > sums the > >>> columns of a register, the Dr and Cr columns should have the > same sum. > >>> Am I confused about this principle? > >>> > >>> I'll need to read about the trading accounts feature. As > someone who > >>> regularly spends money in several currencies, I don't really > think of > >>> these transactions as P&L related, though I'm aware they could be > >>> modeled that way. > >>> > >>> Jeff > >>> > >>> > >>> On 16/08/2019 18:13, Adrien Monteleone wrote: > >>>> So the Cafe’s price was CHF 5.70? > >>>> Your card was debited GBP 4.67? > >>>> > >>>> The Expense:Coffee account is set to EUR? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> First, yes, you’ll need Trading Accounts turned on. > >>>> > >>>> Second, open the price db and fetch rates, then check the > EUR-GBP rate, you’ll need it later. (I don’t see a way around this > at present) For this example, we’ll use 1.0957 which I fetched > just now. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Third, start your transaction by entering the following to > ‘fund’ the card with CHF: > >>>> > >>>> Cr. Transferwise GBP 4.67 > >>>> Dr. Transferwise_CHF CHF 5.70 > >>>> > >>>> (GnuCash will prompt for a GBP-CHF exhange rate, use the > ‘debit’ radio button and field and enter the CHF amount, in this > case, “-5.70") > >>>> > >>>> The transaction should now read something like: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- > >>>> > >>>> Account Debit > Credit > >>>> > >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise > 4.67 > >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF SFr.5.70 > >>>> > >>>> ----- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> (the 4.67 has no currency symbol because it is in the > account’s currency - GBP) > >>>> > >>>> Fourth, enter the actual expense part of the transaction: > >>>> > >>>> Dr. Expenses:Coffee EUR 5.12 > >>>> > >>>> The EUR 5.13 price is based on today’s rate between EUR-GBP > above and calculated either on the side, or directly in the > debit-entry field. (enter as: GBP*rate or 4.67*1.0957) We’re using > the EUR-GBP instead of CHF-EUR because this transaction is being > entered in the Transferwise (GBP) account. > >>>> > >>>> When GnuCash prompts for the exchange rate, simply commit the > FX window. We couldn’t wait to fetch the rate here, because we’d > have to back out and re-enter the amount in the register to match. > >>>> > >>>> Now, the transaction reads like this: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- > >>>> > >>>> Account Debit > Credit > >>>> > >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise > 4.67 > >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF SFr.5.70 > >>>> Expenses:Coffee €5.12 > >>>> > >>>> ----- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Fifth, you need to balance this with CHF funds taken from the > card: > >>>> > >>>> Cr. Transferwise_CHF 5.70 > >>>> > >>>> (GnuCash will again prompt for exchange rate, use ‘debit’ and > “5.70” for the amount) > >>>> > >>>> The transaction now looks like this: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- > >>>> > >>>> Account Debit > Credit > >>>> > >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise > 4.67 > >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF SFr.5.70 > >>>> Expenses:Coffee €5.12 > >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF > SFr.5.70 > >>>> > >>>> ----- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sixth, since you have Trading Accounts turned on, when you > hit `Enter` to commit this transaction GnuCash will add the > balancing splits so your transaction looks like this in final form: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- > >>>> > >>>> Account Debit > Credit > >>>> > >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF SFr.5.70 > >>>> Expenses:Coffee €5.12 > >>>> Trading:CURRENCY:GBP £4.67 > >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise > 4.67 > >>>> Assets:Current Assets:Transferwise_CHF > SFr.5.70 > >>>> Trading:CURRENCY:EUR > €5.12 > >>>> > >>>> ----- > >>>> > >>>> You can of course, make the transaction more ‘complete’ (or > complicated as per your perspective) by also using actual CHF-GBP > and CHF-EUR rates and accounting for the conversion fee rather > than using the ‘debit’ option for those two splits. > >>>> > >>>> You could also separate this into two transactions, one to > ‘fund’ the CHF, then another to spend that on Coffee. > >>>> > >>>> Note, that I tried doing this from the Expense account, but > it was messy. I also couldn’t find a way to get GnuCash to > calculate the EUR price of the transaction for me using the > fetched rate. Maybe someone else has a trick up their sleeve. > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> Adrien > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Aug 15, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Jeff Abrahamson <j...@p27.eu > <mailto:j...@p27.eu>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I purchased a coffee in Switzerland using my GBP-based > Transferwise > >>>>> card. That card could hold a CHF balance, but on that day > it held only > >>>>> GBP. My local currency is EUR. So I can think of my coffee > purchase as > >>>>> two FX transactions: funding (GBP -> CHF) and an expense > (CHF -> EUR). > >>>>> > >>>>> What Transferwise tells me is the amount of the purchase and > the amount > >>>>> of the transaction. (I can also poke further and find the > exchange rate > >>>>> they used and the minuscule fee, but the important point to > me is the > >>>>> the two endpoints.) > >>>>> > >>>>> Now what makes sense to me based on reading about accounting > principles > >>>>> for multiple currencies is that I should make one > transaction thus: > >>>>> > >>>>> Coffee (CHF) <-- Bank (GBP) # This is the funding > part of > >>>>> the transaction. > >>>>> Expense acct <-- Coffee (CHF) # Here I'm tracking > the actual > >>>>> expense. > >>>>> > >>>>> I put those in a single transaction for easier understanding > later. > >>>>> Here I've created a bank account for Transferwise (GBP) as > well as > >>>>> subaccounts of that called Transferwise_CHF and some others, > denominated > >>>>> in the indicated currencies. Those three accounts are transfer > >>>>> accounts: I usually expect them to have zero balance. > >>>>> > >>>>> Transferwise_CHF <-- Transferwise (GBP) # This is the > >>>>> funding part of the transaction. > >>>>> Expense/cafe <-- Transferwise_CHF # Here I'm > tracking > >>>>> the actual expense. > >>>>> > >>>>> Gnucash asks me for some exchange rates, and I answer for > the CHF - GBP > >>>>> part with the specific numbers provided by Transferwise and > for the GBP > >>>>> - EUR part with the exchange rate I've downloaded for that date. > >>>>> > >>>>> I expect to see this in the account Transferwise_CHF > >>>>> > >>>>> 5.70 <-- 5.70 # This is the funding part of the > transaction. > >>>>> 5.70 <-- 5.70 # Here I'm tracking the actual expense. > >>>>> > >>>>> and this in the Transferwise (GBP) account > >>>>> > >>>>> 4.67 <-- 4.67 # This is the funding part of the > transaction. > >>>>> 4.67 <-- 4.67 # Here I'm tracking the actual expense. > >>>>> > >>>>> and something similar looking at the splits in the > (euro-denominated > >>>>> expense account). > >>>>> > >>>>> But what I see (from the perspective of the CHF account) is > this, which > >>>>> makes no sense to me: > >>>>> > >>>>> Gnucash has entered the 2.80, and deleting that split just > makes it pop > >>>>> up again. Something is terribly wrong if any account's > view of the > >>>>> transaction doesn't balance. (This is gnucash 3.4, ubuntu, > build id > >>>>> 3.4+ (2018-12-30). > >>>>> > >>>>> Is this my error or a bug in gnucash? Any pointers? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Somewhat related, I thought to import historical currencies, > as I'm back > >>>>> filling some data for analysis purposes. I grabbed 10 years > of daily > >>>>> quotes and imported them (3600 or so rows of data per > currency). All ok > >>>>> for GBP - EUR. When I do the same for CHF - EUR, gnucash > says it's done > >>>>> it, but the price database doesn't show more than a > handful. When I do > >>>>> it for JPY - EUR, gnucash says it's done but the price > editor shows none > >>>>> of them. The proposed exchange rates when entering > transactions are > >>>>> consistent with what the price editor thinks it knows. > >>>>> > >>>>> Is there a limit on FX rates? (This is about 4000, which > doesn't strike > >>>>> me as terribly large.) > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> Jeff Abrahamson > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gnucash-user mailing list > >>>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org <mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org> > >>>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > >>>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > >>>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > >>>> ----- > >>>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > >>>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Jeff Abrahamson > >>> +33 6 24 40 01 57 > >>> +44 7920 594 255 > >>> > >>> http://p27.eu/jeff/ > >>> http://transport-nantes.com/ > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> gnucash-user mailing list > >>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org <mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org> > >>> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > >>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > >>> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > >>> ----- > >>> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > >>> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gnucash-user mailing list > >> gnucash-user@gnucash.org <mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org> > >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > >> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > > > > > -- > > Jeff Abrahamson > +33 6 24 40 01 57 > +44 7920 594 255 > > http://p27.eu/jeff/ > http://transport-nantes.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org <mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > ----- > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > > > > -- > David Carlson -- Jeff Abrahamson +33 6 24 40 01 57 +44 7920 594 255 http://p27.eu/jeff/ http://transport-nantes.com/ _______________________________________________ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. ----- Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. 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