Walter Dnes schreef: > On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 09:39:15AM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote > > >>Bit I think you're missing the point. These are DEFAULTS, if you >>really don't want any unnecessary GNOME packages installed, you >>should be specifically including -gnome in /etc/make.conf. > > > The point which I'm trying to make, and everybody else seems to be > missing, is that *THE DEFAULTS ARE CONSTANTLY CHANGING UNDER OUR FEET*. > Several weeks ago, I didn't have to put -gnome in USE in /etc/make.conf. > Now I do. Several months ago, I didn't have to put -ipv6 in USE. Now I > do.
I'm sorry, I don't agree that the defaults are "constantly" changing. I'm 99% positive that gnome was a default in last year's profiles (as was kde), and I'm moderately less certain about ipv6, but I do think it was there. Perhaps your, like my, usage habits have changed, so you have only now *noticed* these defaults (that's why I'm less certain about ipv6; I never paid attention to it until I decided to stop using it), rather than that the defaults themselves have changed. > What's going to be added to the defaults next week or next month? > I don't like the idea of an "anti-USE definition" that needs constant > checking and updating like a Windows anti-virus definition. Here's what > /usr/portage/profiles/default-linux/x86/make.defaults has accumulated > over the years to date... > > > USE="alsa apm arts avi berkdb bitmap-fonts crypt cups emboss encode fortran > foomaticdb gdbm gif gnome gpm gtk gtk2 imlib ipv6 jpeg kde libg++ libwww mad > mikmod motif mp3 mpeg ncurses nls oggvorbis opengl oss pam pdflib perl png > python qt quicktime readline sdl spell ssl tcpd truetype truetype-fonts > type1-fonts X xml2 xmms xv zlib" > > Is all this *REALLY* necessary, folks? Now we know why people trying > to build a minimal Gentoo have problems cutting it down to size. Perhaps so, but is building a minimal system the default behaviour that the profiles are targeted to? Apparently not. This "default system" is expected to likely meet the following criteria: 1) it has sound (alsa, oss) 2) it uses X (X, xv) 3) it uses KDE or GNOME for a DE (qt, kde, arts, gtk, gtk2) 4) it has a printer attached (cups, foomaticdb) and that the user of the system may very likely --out of the box-- want to: 5) have access Internet servers of various types (ipv6, tcpd) 6) play music of various sorts (mad, mikmod, oggvorbis, xmms) 7) play video of various formats (avi, mpeg, quicktime) 8) view images of various formats (imlib, jpeg, gif, png, zlib) 9) rip music CDs or DVDs (encode) 10) have decent-looking fonts (truetype, type1-fonts, bitmap-fonts) 11) read PDF or xml documents (pdflib, xml2) 11) encrypt some part of their system (crypt), 12) login securely, and/or from a remote location (ssl, pam) 13) compile or develop something (fortran, python, perl,libwww) 14) have access to a complete range of console apps (ncurses, gpm, readline) 15) see programs in their native language, whatever it may be (nls, spell) with support for significant minority positions such as: 15) having a laptop (apm) 16) using a different WM/DE (motif) 17) the necessity of connecting to a database (berkdb, gbdm, libg++) 18) using the system in the sciences (emboss) OK, it's not a precise grouping, but it's probably good enough. The point being that a mininal system is *not* "default" but the default settings are themselves fairly minimal for a wide range of possibilities-- meaning that an "average user" who didn't use KDE, or have a sound card would only have to change the lowest possible number of settings in the default profile. Which imo is a reasonable compromise between functionality (bloat), and flexibility. If you want to do something "special", like run a minimal system, or not use PAM, or use the box solely as a MythTV server, or router, or whatever, then yes, you have to do more work, but you're building a custom box, so you should already be prepared to do a fair amount of work. Secondly, this business of "constantly having to keep an eye on the defaults, because they're always changing" falls a bit flat for me as well. *Linux* is always changing, and what it can do is constantly expanding, and the USE defaults change to suit. Naturally, before there was an ALSA, there could not be an alsa USE flag, and even when there was, I'm sure it wasn't in the default profile, since most people were still using OSS, as were most sound-producing programs. But now it's the default kernel sound system, so of course support for it is also default. The thing is, when ALSA became the default set of kernel drivers, we all --meaning all Linux users--knew about that. There was certainly enough noise made about the differences of the 2.6 kernel series to the 2.4 kernel series that it would have been pretty hard not to know-- and if you were at that time a Gentoo user, it wouldn't have taken a lot of brainpower to guess that alsa might well become a default USE flag, and if you had a soundcard-free system, you would have to mask it out. The reason AV programs require constant updating is because the environment they have to maintain (a virus-free system) is constantly changing (because people develop new viruses). The environment Gentoo has to maintain changes as well, but much less so-- as long as you are not changing your own usage patterns constantly, all you have to worry about is well-publicized capability expansions of the kind that 'average users' probably want. And honestly, if you're building a custom system, having to keep an eye on any new defaults integrated in any new profiles (which is not all that often anyway, and again well-publicized-- I don't think that the profile updates that I see a bit more frequently necessarily changes use.defaults, but correct me if I'm wrong), sounds 1) normal and 2) not terribly serious to me, especially since (if you're paying attention and use -av whenever you emerge something), you'll likely notice any new default flags when you attempt to compile or recompile something that uses said new flags, and mask them out right then--after which it's done. Plus, it's not as if you don't have the ability to simply refuse to update your profile until you're forced to, at which point it's only reasonable to have a look at the new profile anyway. This is, after all, Gentoo, where we still are expected to get down and dirty every so often. Just my €1,89 (way too much text for €0,02) Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
