Gris, sorry for the late reply. I'm only now catching up on emails after the holidays. Thanks for your support!
The next steps are for me (in the next two weeks) to write an official proposal. I'll then start a [DISCUSS] Thread and will gather interested parties. We can take it from there. I believe that for the moment there's nothing to do. Regarding the technical discussion: I've intentionally avoided that for now as I wanted to focus on the topic itself before hopefully diving into details later. No matter which technology we chose someone will be unhappy with it but I believe this to be no different than any other "technical" project. Cheers, Lars > > > I really like the idea! > > We, from time to time, also do trainings and workshops with Apache > projects and it would really help to have a better basis. > > And I agree for you that you don’t get payed for *having* slides but for > the show as well as for the insights you get from a good instructor or a > person with background knowledge, so I also see no big concerns in sharing. > > > > One thing that came to my mind was to use some kind of "code based" > generation for the slides, notebooks, brochures like Latex, Markdown, > Asciidoc or else... > > I would strongly advise against using code base generators as the only way > to consume these materials. The reason why is that this is a entry barrier > for folks wanting to contribute to community and project management and who > are not technical. This will also put a huge adoption barrier since we'd > need to assume people using this materials are versed in this technology. > That been said. We could use the code based generator for folks wanting to > do more with what's produced but also publishing official brochures and > content that people can just "grab and go". > > This is in alignment with having a more active attitude towards > recognizing non-code contributions. > > > I would not like to force users to use proprietary tools (PPT) to use > the material. > > And furthermore, this would allow us to have some kind of style files > which could be personalized for corps and which they could keep for each > release. > > Another aspect is that it makes the whole versioning way easier as it is > code and one can see all changes and stuff which is impossible for "binary" > formats. > > I also think we have enough people here that would be able to easily do > an automated resources documentation, so that we could always offer > "compiled" material in pdf in default style or the possibility to do a > custom build with custom styles. > > > > And I think that the incubator would be a good place to start to see if > here, as in all ASF projects, a community can be established and continuous > effort is spend on the project. This would reduce the risk of a "zombie" > project which is probably only really powered by one organization and lives > and dies on their will. > > > > Julian > > > > Am 17.12.18, 14:37 schrieb "Rich Bowen" <rbo...@rcbowen.com>: > > > > It's worth mentioning that there's a conversation going right now > over on > > the members@ list about creating a "central services" kind of > entity. That > > discussion is primarily focused on design/graphic kind of stuff, but > > training/documentation/presentations are similar in concept, if not > in > > content, and I'm definitely in favor of such an entity existing. > > > > Your anticipated question "Isn't the ASF all about code, now you > want to do > > PPT!" is very insightful. The ASF exists to provide services to > projects, > > and this is an unfilled need that many/most of our projects have. > There is > > precedent - we have an infrastructure organization, a conferences > entity, a > > marketing group, legal, brand, and so on, that provide non-code > services to > > projects. Recognizing contributors for non-code contributions is > *critical* > > for the survival of our projects, and of the Foundation as a whole, > and we > > tend to be very poor at it. > > > > So, suffice it to say, a huge +1 to this concept, although I'm not > sure > > where it should live - whether under ComDev (as you suggest) or as a > > top-level entity. I think the latter makes a little more sense. > While this > > is indeed a function of community development/growth/education, it's > also > > sufficiently different that it may need to be independent. > > > > What are next steps? I don't *think* this is something that should go > > through the Incubator. It's not a Thing Like That. Perhaps a > proposal to > > the Board to create a top-level thing? I'll put a pointer to this > thread > > into that other thread (referenced above), and apologies to those of > you > > who are not ASF Members and cannot see that thread. > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:23 AM Lars Francke <lars.fran...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I'd like to start a discussion around establishing a project (or > Central > > > Service) at the ASF to host and develop training and related > materials for > > > ASF (and possibly others, where it makes sense) projects. > > > > > > I'm a committer and contributor to a few projects and make money > doing > > > consulting work. Naturally people do contact us for training, and > we have > > > developed our own slideware etc. but we find it incredibly hard > work to > > > keep those up-to-date. > > > > > > We also work with lots of other companies and they all face the > same > > > challenges. At the same time, we do not believe that a slide-deck > is worth > > > that much on its own (others disagree, as we used to). We believe > the > > > instructor is the real selling-point and especially when that > person is > > > deeply embedded in the projects itself as a committer or PMC. > > > > > > So, we as a company[0] would like to donate our slide decks and > other > > > resources we have and establish an ASF wide training project in > the hopes > > > that we as a community can collaborate on those resources. We are > currently > > > talking to partners to assess whether they are interested in > joining us in > > > open sourcing their material. > > > > > > I'm not sure if this is a "Central Services" kind of thing or if > it should > > > be an Incubator project to begin with. I'm posting this here > because I > > > think there are good arguments for it being a project (e.g. it > appears as a > > > “project” in all lists that others can contribute to, it follows a > familiar > > > structure etc.). It might be a bit different than other projects > though > > > (e.g. maybe there are no real releases?). > > > > > > This is also not limited to just slides obviously but also > accompanying > > > code and potentially other media forms. > > > > > > One concern I have is that the material should be as objective as > possible, > > > but our clients especially value our (often subjective) input on > the > > > matureness of tools (third-party as well as ASF), processes and > > > communities. So, we usually include that in our slides. I guess > anyone > > > using this material would need to customize it. > > > > > > This is how I see it but I'm happy to change based on feedback. > > > In scope: > > > * Develop shared material that can be used for trainings > > > * Develop “labs” or “hands-on” exercises > > > * Develop or document an infrastructure that can be used for those > labs > > > * Potentially develop tools to manage the material (e.g. ideally a > slide > > > repository that contains “modules” that can be easily reused and > combined) > > > > > > Out of scope (for now at least) > > > * Something like what the CNCF has with their “Kubernetes Training > > > Program”[1] with certified training partners > > > * Project documentation > > > > > > I wasn’t sure whether to start this discussion in members@ and/or > here or > > > somewhere else entirely. But as we believe it should be a > “project” I think > > > this is the best place for it. I’m happy to cross-post if you > think it > > > worthwhile. > > > > > > I'm looking forward to any and all feedback you might have on > this. I would > > > be happy to draw up a formal Incubator Proposal once we agree on a > result > > > and shape. > > > > > > Anticipated FAQs: > > > > > > Q: Shouldn’t each project take care of its own training? > > > A: Yes and no. Ideally a project should be well documented but > developing > > > material for professional “training” is quite different from > writing > > > documentation in my experience. I think it's better to have a > single > > > central project doing this than having this as part of every > project > > > itself. One reason being that it makes sense to have cross-project > > > trainings (e.g. no one is interested in an “Apache Hadoop” > training. They > > > all want to learn about the ecosystem). > > > > > > Q: Isn't the ASF all about code, now you want to do PPT! > > > A: We’ve had committers for documentation for a long time and I’d > actually > > > like to see much more of that in the future. I think it’s not > about the > > > code but about merit. We have a lot of Apache Way presentations > now (which > > > could be part of this project) that go into depth on this one. > > > > > > Q: We have the Community project[2], should this not be part of > that > > > project? > > > A: I honestly don’t know. There is definitely some overlap or > alignment but > > > from all I’ve seen and read I think these could very well be two > distinct > > > projects but “we” could follow a very similar structure and > probably reuse > > > some content and tools. > > > > > > Q: I don't like PPT/keynote/Apache OpenOffice/HTML slides/... > everyone > > > should do PechaKucha at all times. > > > A: We are not set on any format for the content, finding a > suitable format > > > will be part of this project’s mission. To me this is a technical > > > discussion like it happens a hundred times a day on the Apache > Jira and > > > Mailing Lists. There will be disagreement and some people will be > > > disappointed by some of the choices made but that’s no different > than any > > > other project. > > > > > > Q: How can I integrate slides from this project to match my > corporate > > > design? I'm not allowed to not use CD. > > > A: Another technical question (plus probably one that involves > legal@) to > > > which I do not yet have an answer. > > > > > > Thank you Bernd Fondermann, Sönke Liebau and Tim Robertson for the > review > > > of this mail. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Lars > > > > > > [0] <https://www.opencore.com/> > > > [1] <https://www.cncf.io/certification/training/> > > > [2] <https://community.apache.org/> > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
