Adding members@ On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org> wrote:
> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in > English? > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when it > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much lower > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English > as for English speakers to learn Chinese. > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also exclude > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of native > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 according > to Wikipedia. > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries, > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger. > > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <luke...@apache.org> wrote: > >> Hi Gunnar, >> >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not >> real, >> but just >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from >> China, >> or any other territories from all of the world. >> >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and LABEL >> for such >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue" to >> describe like >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or >> others... >> that's not right way. >> >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are >> contributing to >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much, >> involved >> in many >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply. >> >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days >> mailing >> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]: >> >> Project | Emails | Topics | Participants >> HBase | 610 | 406 | 100 >> Spark | 412 | 88 | 124 >> Kylin | 294 | 144 | 61 >> CarbonData | 852 | 250 | 116 >> HAWQ | 284 | 109 | 57 >> Trafodion | 87 | 20 | 25 >> >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you >> could check >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list. >> >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to >> access >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers, >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way. >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global >> community, and try >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the patience >> for >> those new comers. >> >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our journey, >> our experience >> about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such >> challenges...through >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many >> potential projects >> who are interesting to join Apache family. >> >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help >> Trafodion >> community" >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion >> PMC >> know >> this concern?) I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles, >> session recordings and >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face >> discussion >> if necessary:-) >> >> >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org> >> >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion. >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from >> > China. >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that >> active >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in >> > Chinese. >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums. >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward, >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in >> China >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like >> > this. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Gunnar >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <ross.gard...@microsoft.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of >> years >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source >> beyond >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to >> > China. >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved >> with >> > this proposal. >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will >> need >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need >> to >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation >> and as >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some >> of >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the >> project >> > can succeed. >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help. >> > >> > Ross >> > >> > --- >> > Twitter: @rgardler >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.sny...@gmail.com> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal >> > >> > Hi John, >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project >> using >> > your suggestions. >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling, >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history >> > was >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu >> went >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also >> gives >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed, >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with >> git), >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve >> and >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way? >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since >> Bruce is >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors, >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in >> continuing >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years >> experience >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and >> > people to the ASF. >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good >> suggestions >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal. >> Even >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving >> forward. >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you >> mentioned >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ >> code >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with >> his >> > thoughts: >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions >> > specifically: >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities >> to >> > build cross platform clients? >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend >> > persistence stores? >> > >> > >> > Bruce >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.am...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org >> > >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned >> about: >> > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs% >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com% >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5% >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0 >> > > > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails. >> > > > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement: >> > > > "The source code was opened up in 2012." >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing? >> > > > >> > > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well. I >> > suspect >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the >> > > product and it was kept internal. >> > > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache >> products" >> > > section still. I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes >> with >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of >> one >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with >> the >> > > other components. I raised that they're using ASF projects today in >> > their >> > > code base. >> > > >> > > Some other ways to address this section: >> > > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ >> communities >> > to >> > > build cross platform clients? >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend >> > > persistence stores? >> > > >> > > etc.. >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > Thanks, >> > > > Roman. >> > > > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister < >> bri...@skife.org> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > > +1 ! >> > > > > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> >> > wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > >> Cool. >> > > > >> >> > > > >> +1 >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder < >> bruce.sny...@gmail.com> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named >> > > Apache >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed, >> > easy >> > > > to >> > > > >> use >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large >> > amounts >> > > > of >> > > > >> > streaming data. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following >> URL: >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% >> 2F% >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02% >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff% >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata= >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0 >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks, >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > --------- >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache. >> org >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> --------- >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > perl -e 'print >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" >> );' >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m >> icrosoft.com% >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6% >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0 >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com >> % >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ% >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks. >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c >> 6e60c908d40597 >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0% >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata= >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0> >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01% >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff% >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata= >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0 >> > >> > >
