Brett, Am not sure that the last point will fly with the board :)
Yes, i'd be worried too :) [*if the WS PMC had vetted and voted and still produced the same proposal*] +1 to base web site content around the questions like you mentioned. Can you please help write them up? The worries that i see from folks (including me!) are: - Too fast unfettered growth (how to avoid problems like too much stuff in jakarta) and how to scale infra and new project oversight. - Rubber stamping of proposals with little effort diligence by PMC (am not saying it has happened already, but the fear is there). One question i have is, what do we mean by a community? What does a proposal mean when it says that it is trying to build a community (Say ServiceMix to pick one, you can choose Synapse or Tuscany too if you want to pick examples) Does it include people working on a specific problem area already in Apache? (Example WS-Folks for ServiceMix and Geronimo folks for Tuscany). What does one do when a PMC (say Geronimo PMC) picks up a project that is by definition being worked on by another PMC (Say BPEL), the existing folks are shut out of the proposal and won't know about it till it hits [EMAIL PROTECTED] and even then they can't join because another PMC has OK'ed it and the doors are shut. Some cynics might say that the AJAX proposal was hurried to become a "placeholder" to shut off competing proposals. So again, what do we mean by a community? and how do we ensure and encourage participation by folks and to make a level playing field without politics. Do you see the problems? thanks, dims On 1/3/06, Brett Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sure, but your last point (having the incubator also approve an > external project coming to a PMC) was designed to take care of that. > > I agree, it worked well with Tuscany. However, in some cases it makes > more sense for a PMC to get their house in order first. As long as > everybody gets involved before anything gets started/promoted/etc. I'd > be surprised (and worried) if the WS PMC had vetted and voted on this > first and still produced the same proposal as originally worded. > > In reality, what is really needed is more open communication between > the incubator / membership-at-large and PMCs when new projects are > coming in. > > I really think this should be based around a set of use cases rather > than sweeping changes to general policy. Its going to be a lot > different depending on how much existing Apache community there is, > whether its based around existing code or just an idea, etc. > > * What to do if you want to bring existing code into your current TLP > > * what to do if you want to move an existing community to your TLP > > * What to do if you want to bring an existing codebase/community to > Apache as its own TLP > > * What to do if you want to start a new project at Apache. > > Keep it simple, and focus on how the incubator can help a project do > what they need to in a way that benefits the ASF. My greatest concern > in all the recent discussions is that there seems to be a distrust of > PMCs to do the right thing. > > Just my 2 cents, > - Brett > > On 1/3/06, Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Brett, > > > > Let's take Tuscany, If the WS PMC had voted on the proposal before it > > hit [EMAIL PROTECTED], it would have probably passed the pmc VOTE. and > > incubator would have had to accept it as-is. however fortunately, the > > proposal was sent directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Roy (and others) had > > quite a few > > problems with it which got fixed. So it was a good decision in hind > > sight that the people who proposed tuscany went to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > first. > > > > thanks, > > dims > > > > On 1/2/06, Brett Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Some thoughts: > > > > > > # [ ] - Any proposal should hit [EMAIL PROTECTED] first, No PR before > > > that. > > > # [ ] - Any PR should be vetted by PRC, No Excuses. > > > > > > Agree, for the Apache side of things. I'm not sure we can stop > > > companies doing what they are going to do, but we can certainly say > > > that that they shouldn't be doing so and list the reasons why (because > > > it mighr not be accepted, might have a different name, etc). > > > > > > Also, please define "PR". Recent examples seem to think that an > > > individual member of the proposal's personal blog is PR, which I'm not > > > sure I agree with. > > > > > > # [ ] - A sponsoring PMC should hold their VOTE to sponsor a proposal > > > or IP Clearance 72 hours *AFTER* it is posted on [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Seems back to front to me. How can you propose anything to the > > > incubator that you haven't decided you want to do? > > > > > > - Brett > > > > > > On 1/1/06, Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > Please review the items here: > > > > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ProposedChanges > > > > > > > > Please feel free to add/modify/delete or start a new thread here on > > > > any issue that you care about. Let's give it a week and then ask the > > > > incubator PMC to VOTE on items on that page. > > > > > > > > thanks, > > > > dims > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/ > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/ > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
