Helmut Eller <eller.hel...@gmail.com>: > > If nobody bothers with even > > considering the question, it would appear that it is not all that > > important... > > Maybe nobody bothers because using clang is easier than to fight with > FSF policies.
<<Which is pretty close if not identical to my original point. The clang people aren't just a technical challenge to GCC, they're a philosophical/political one to the FSF as well. They are explicitly reacting, and positioning themselves publicly against, what they consider FSF over-control.>> It is never a good idea to exclude political and social ramifications from the software design and use decisions... It so happens that over the long hall, the free software ends up being technologically superior....most often. But this is besides the point. <<The clearest possible statement of this is in Chandler Carruth's talk "Clang: Defending C++ from Murphy's Million Monkeys" (all over YouTube) in which he explains "why we set out to build another C++ compiler" by beginning with this question posted to the gcc list: "is there are reason for not making the [GCC] front ends dynamic libraries which could be linked by any program that wants to parse source code?" Carruth then quotes RMS: "One of our main goals for GCC is to prevent any parts of it from being used together with non-free software. Thus, we have deliberately avoided many things that might possibly have the effect of facilitating such usage..." Carruth then says, exasperation very obvious in his voice, "This is *not* a *useful answer*!" (about 3:42 in the video). >> Clearly this is a complete break off now of the BSD community but there is another half of this story, because the platform that most of us have gotten compfortable with over the last decade is now being flanked on several levels for which the compiler keychain is maybe just the last straw. I think it might be necessary in the near future to just break with the current "Linux" platform altogether, and maybe rebuild a BSD based system with the FSF tool kit and start there as a new base. <<Thus, the clang project. They want to build IDEs and other tools that share the compiler's code. GCC policy won't let them do that. Ergo, GCC must be kicked aside. The clang developers are demonstrating that they have the capacity to make good on this threat. clang is not a toy or a laboratory demonstration; it is a real, production-quality compiler with some significant advantages over GCC. Much more useful error messages is one; a newer generation of optimization leading to smaller, tighter code is another; and much faster compilation is yet another.>> It is just another compiler in order to make non-free software. It is the free software platform as a whole that is being seriously strained. <<The "Clang vs Other Open Source Compilers" page admits that "GCC supports more targets than LLVM" and "GCC supports languages that clang does not aim to", but these are not stable advantages given the technical strength of LLVM and the large amount of developer commitment clang now has. I'm not pointing out these facts to argue with the FSF's past decisions, but to ask "What are you going to do now?" More of the same will not serve. GCC is in near-term danger of losing its dominance in open-source C development; I would say the danger is imminent if not that people are innately conservative about major changes>> Uh huh. You know what, it won't matter with UEFI and if systemd continues to absorb the entire GNU toolkit. It is not just BSD that will no longer have GNU/Roots.... The GNU/Linux is almost dead in its own right. <<to their toolchains. The other shoe will drop when a major Linux distribution ships with clang as its default compiler; I could easily see this happening before the end of 2015, followed by a cascade of me-too defections. To keep its #1 spot, GCC needs to out-improve and out-compete clang. And not just on the technical level, either. "Using clang is easier than to fight with FSF policies" indeed. Unless that changes, GCC's future is as a legacy tool, a backwater that developers are exiting as fast as is practical.>> [QUOTE]"I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned." You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attacted at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt. I guess you missed that one." [/QUOTE] Right now, it is hard to find a distribution that functions, and they have less GNU tools on them every day. << As I've said before, I don't personally care who wins; either tool will serve my needs. I would prefer to see both flourish and compete with each other. But that's not where things are heading unless GCC ups its game.>> That won't even scratch the surface. Consider this... UEFI puts a operating system between you and your hardware. Without a secure boot, it is a security flaw...outright. WITH a secure boot, it is no better than the Apple Appstore because you can't change the binaries and expect them to be signable. And then you have systemd, which is eating every peice of GNUtoolkit it can find, and then some. In fact, systemd is nearly a shelless operating system, and it certain doesn't need GCC, or the GNU toolkit. In fact, it smothers the need for a toolkit since all the hackable parts are being rounded up. It's stated goal is to make all distriubutions identical.... Boy, this is a F$$$thyylking innovatoin if I ever saw one. Who needs a compiler when you have a locked down Operating System that you have to beg for a TCP Socket from. And then there is android, and Chromium, the browser that spies on you (and YES the free version DOES spy on you), and Firefox feels like it is dieing... Java and MYSQL were eaten by Oracle.... This is not a bright time in the world. I feel earnestly bad for the youngsters growing up in this, and that includes my children and grandchildren. There is a need for some bold action. But fixing GCC for some marginal improvements at best... it needs to be done. It always needs to be done. But we need something else as well. Ruben -- -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
