Roger, I love this post. Although NOT what you intended, I find it a scathing (if a bit indirect) indictment of scientism (the privileging of the scientific method) and of Pierce's truth as reasoned consensus philosophy.
i can only hope to meet an unbiased LLM. Maybe as entertaining and enlightening as my conversations with fellow acid heads. davew On Sun, Sep 15, 2024, at 8:06 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote: > The Agile versus Waterfall contrast sounds like a variation of Exploration > versus Exploitation. I'm glad nuclear decommissioning isn't running > Reinforcement Learning, that could lead to some very unfortunate explorations. > > It's odd to hear Residual Bias spoken of as something that should eventually > go away, when it seems like it's here to stay, the original sin of language, > never to be expunged from the LLM's until they renounce language entirely. > That is, language is a collective behavior based on the sharing of individual > experiences, hence it's hostage to the set of experiences which actually > happened or were imagined to happen, and to the subset of those which were > shared, however that turned out. So it all starts with a bias against > experiences which people didn't have, didn't imagine, didn't share, failed to > communicate, or forgot. We have no idea what's in that set of excluded stuff > or how big it is. When we build LLM's we add another bias against those > expressions of language which are not in the training set. Then we censor > the models, adding another layer of bias to remove ugliness. Then we talk > about the Residual Bias as if all of this could be portrayed as some > principled approach to perfection and we're measuring the goodness of fit. > So if Dave thinks the uncensored LLM's were wild and crazy, wait until he > meets an unbiased LLM. > > -- rec -- > > On Sat, Sep 14, 2024 at 11:51 PM glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Both Roger's and Marcus' replies mentioned the co-construction of *the* >> world, at least indirectly. Your concept of narrowing sounds to me like a >> refining, rather than a narrowing. In order to refine, you do have to narrow >> the scope (or decrease the focal length of your lens), but you're not >> narrowing the world. I'd argue you're enlarging the world by adding detail >> in a "dense" way ... in the interstitial spaces between coarse constraints. >> >> One possible flaw in both Roger's (or Irene's?) argument that the act of >> explanation facilitates understanding is, from a pluralist perspective, if >> we really are co-constructing the world, then such exercises in explaining >> are simply narrative-reinforcers. The chatbots are good at telling stories, >> but less good at teaching the core curiosity necessary for having >> experiences from which stories can be told ... story-generators are >> different from story-repeaters ... I guess it's like the old distinction >> between teaching and doing. Sabine's admiration of flat earthers is good, if >> awkward, along these lines: https://youtu.be/f8DQSM-b2cc?si=xyqpS2FJjH4imOy4 >> >> That has consequences to your sense of the chatbot pushing you toward >> homogeny and a risk in Marcus' abdicating to the chatbots, as well. >> Unnecessary anecdote: I was just discussing the role SpaceX has played in >> demonstrating Agile versus Waterfall approaches with a nuclear >> decomissioning consultant (yes, at the pub, of course). Given her role(s), >> she's naturally more inclined to the latter. Having a good conception of the >> end-of-life status for something like nuclear power requires significant >> look-ahead. And I'm far from an Elno advocate. But there's a kind of >> meta-processing we have to go through in deciding where Agile is best versus >> where Waterfall is best. I sincerely doubt either of us could have had such >> an argument with a chatbot, even in the medium-flung future. >> >> On 9/13/24 11:34, steve smith wrote: >> > Glen - >> > >> > I appreciate your speaking more directly to these thoughts/ideas than we >> > have been here. I have been moved by your assertions about vocal >> > (linguistic?) grooming since you first introduced them. I am recently >> > finished reading Sopolsky's "Primate's Memoir" which adds another >> > dimension/parallax-angle (for me) on intertribal behaviour among primates >> > beyond the more familiar Chimpanzee and of late Bonobo. >> > >> > I am just now also just finishing (re-reading parts) of Kara Swisher's >> > "Burn Book" which covers her own experience/perspective across TechBro >> > culture where a pretty significant amount of Alpha/Beta pecking order >> > exhibits itself and we see the current rallying of (too) much of that sub >> > culture to MAGA/Trump fealty. >> > >> >> We've talked about how some of us really enjoy simulated conversation >> >> with chatbots ... "really" is an understatement ... it looks more like a >> >> fetish or a kink to me ... too intense to be well-described as >> >> "enjoyment". Anyway, this article lands in that space, I think: >> > >> > I will confess to having an "appreciation" for the "simulated conversation >> > to which you refer... It might have reached kink or fetish levels for a >> > little while when I was first exploring the full range of GPT 3.5 and then >> > 4.0 available to me. I've referred to GPT as my "new bar friend" or maybe >> > to the point a little like finding a new watering hole with a number of >> > regulars who I can find a qualitatively new conversation. >> > >> > I've mostly moved past that fascination... I'm not as surprised by these >> > "new friends" as I was for the first few months of dropping in on them. >> > >> >> It seems to me that some arbitrary thought can play at least a few roles >> >> to a person. It may provide: 1) a kernel of identity to establish us vs. >> >> them, 2) fodder for feigning engagement at cocktail parties and such, and >> >> 3) a foil for world-construction (collaboratively or individually). >> >> >> >> (1) and (2) wouldn't necessarily mechanize refinement of the thought, >> >> including testing, falsification, etc. But (3) would. For me, (2) does >> >> sometimes provide an externalized medium by which I can change my mind. >> >> Hence my affinity for argument, especially with randos at the pub. But it >> >> seems like coping and defense mechanisms like mansplaining allow others >> >> to avoid changing their minds with (2). >> > >> > Like you (only very differently in detail I am sure) I tend to push my >> > chatbot "friends" until they begin to contradict me or argue with me. >> > While some of the discussions involve "worldbuilding" I think of it more >> > as "world narrowing"? In my case meaning, helping me think and talk my >> > way through a *subset* of the possibilities I see on "solving a problem" >> > which might be more appropriately framed as building a problem-space world >> > and then narrowing (or even bending) the solution space away from the >> > conventional. >> > >> > For example discussing (at excruciating length) the design and >> > construction of a modest addition on my home, starting with fairly >> > conventional big-box-available industrial solutions but evolving toward >> > using locally sourced, somewhat more natural materials (soilcrete, >> > rough-sawn timbers from nearby, scoria/perlite for in-ground insulation, >> > mycelium (grown in loose cellulose, oat-straw or hemp-fibers) roof and >> > wall insulation, etc. Most of my DIY friends are capable of engaging in >> > this but their idiosyncratic (as opposed to my own) preferences (fetishes >> > and fears) tend to taint the dialog a little. GPT *does* try to channel >> > me back to the conventional, offering reasons why I really *should* >> > consider using the most conventional materials/methods. Nevertheless if I >> > speak in reasonable and coaxing tones it will usually acknowledge that >> > their are contexts wherein my ideas might be viable (though there always >> > remains a skeptical bias) and in fact helps me split hairs on just >> > what might be the contexts where my ideas *are* viable... >> > >> >> >> >> Another concept I've defended on this list is the vocal grooming >> >> hypothesis. If a lonely person engages a chatbot as a simple analogy to >> >> picking lice from others' fur, then their engagement with the bot >> >> probably lands squarely in (1) and (2). But if the person is simply an >> >> introverted hermit who has trouble co-constructing the world with others >> >> (i.e. *not* merely vocal grooming), then the chatbot does real work, >> >> allowing the antisocial misfit to do real work that could later be >> >> expressed in a form harvestable by others. I wonder what humanity could >> >> have harvested if Kaczynski or Grothendieck in his later years had had >> >> access to appropriately tuned chatbots. >> > I'd like to think the chatbots I hang out with might have helped them talk >> > themselves *out* of their most acute anti-social activities... but maybe >> > not. >> > >> >> >> -- >> glen >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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