Interesting. I find that my elderly self behaves as if physical objects have intentions. If I hurt myself on a piece of furniture I try not to use the Lord's name but I might well call the object an SOB.
Frank --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Aug 15, 2024, 7:02 PM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote: > I find the "Laws of Karma" illuminating for any discussion of telicity, > especially the 'free will' aspect brought up by glen. > > The Vedic-Buddhist notion of karma begins with the notion of pan > consciousness, everything down to the subatomic particles (or strings) has > some degree of consciousness and from this the ability to "choose" among > behaviors. Choose the wrong behavior, for the wrong reasons and you accrue > karma. (There is not such thing as good karma, no erasing accumulations > from 'bad' actions by engaging in 'good' actions.) > > However, the the possible choices are severely restricted if you are a > quark and the 'bad' choices are but barely possible. > > When the accumulation of bits of consciousness plus the increasing > organization of those bits is such that you have a conscious human being > the *apparent* choices are greater. > > However, any particular choice is dependent upon previous choices—all the > way back to when you were a mere amino acid. While the range of choice, the > exercise of free will, appears to be large, the odds of you making a 'bad' > choice are almost as improbable as would be the case if you were still a > rock. [I am forgetting the name, but there is a modern philosopher who > makes much this same argument against free will.] > > In fact the only "choice" you have is to act with "non-attachment." A > very difficult concept to convey, but for now just think of actions that > are not motivated by a desire for gain; or by things like lust, greed, > anger; or by the notion that "your choice makes a difference as to outcome." > > An enlightened individual acts with 'perfect knowledge' (essentially an > awareness of all those pesky antecedent acts) and takes the 'correct' (the > act with a probability approaching certainty) action. With non-attachment, > hence no karma. > > That is why the enlightened sage, when asked what it was like live as an > enlightened being, replied, "When I am thirsty i drink, hungry I eat, and > sleepy I sleep." > > Everything done by anything is 'telic' in glen's sense. Karma accruing > actions are telic in Nick's sense. > > davew > > > On Mon, Aug 12, 2024, at 1:21 PM, glen wrote: > > Nick and I had a lengthy argument about the ambiguity in telicity. He > > sticking to his conception that telicity is indicated by objectives, > > purpose, desire, etc. Me sticking to my conception that telicity is > > (merely) anything posed in consideration of a final state. > > > > Whether the conversation's about Ukraine as a conflux of monists > > cleansing the land of pluralists or, as Eric emphasizes, providing > > narrative scaffolding (like a state with which one might identify), the > > gist is the same: What is the *scope* of the causal agents? And is > > there a heterarchy of causal scopes? Or are there primary (then > > secondary, tertiary, ...) scopes? > > > > Such arguments must (yes, must) End up in arguments about free will, > > determinism, and the ontological status of stochasticity, as long as > > there's no shared value system amongst the discussants that includes a > > metaphysical commitment to (or against) the primacy of randomness. A > > clever method for denying randomness without sacrificing the > > distinction between the two conceptions of telicity is to commit to > > Lewisian possible worlds (or the weaker concept of parallel universes). > > But in all cases ruled by humility and agnosticism, pluralism is the > > winner; and any type of monism is the loser. > > > > Either telicity can be disambiguated by allowing for false objectives > > (those aspired to but not obtained, via ignorance, limited > > understanding) *or* by allowing for a manipulable/controllable universe > > (via limited power). > > > > And because this post is already too long, I'll tell a story. At > > Friday's Salon, a fellow anarcho-syndicalist argued that holding shares > > via a market in a publicly traded company is strongly analogous to > > betting on the final state of a roulette wheel. I tried, and failed, to > > point out that the market is co-constructed by not only the players of > > the game, but the co-evolving environment in which the game is played. > > So it's nothing like a roulette wheel, at all, which is painstakingly > > engineered to be "fair", with minimal friction mechanisms and whatnot. > > But his (meta)narrative was way too strong. He's infected by the lefty > > rhetoric that the stock market is Just a rent-seeking form of gambling > > and the dividends come purely from the exploitation of the wage slaves. > > I even brought up recent news of shareholder rebellions (Tesla, Exxon, > > ...) as evidence that publicly traded companies may be "better" than > > privately held companies. In the end, it made me more skeptical of his > > commitment to syndicalism. >8^D > > > > > > On 8/10/24 21:36, Santafe wrote: > >> Quick comment from me, not to the direct point in this post, which I > like too, but on something about Snyder which I learned (just off-hand) > from a colleague within the past 2 weeks. > >> > >> These ideas about the language of inevitability as one of the devices > of tyrants was, I think, argued in much the same terms by Hannah Arendt, > and Snyder continues in that framework, continuing to test and develop it. > >> > >> What I learned is that he expanded another of her ideas in a place she > didn’t get to. > >> > >> This question of whether ethno-states are the only long-term attractor > forms for states is being tested again in this era, to a degree it never > really was before. Somewhat in the early 20th century, but the notion that > rights-based states would fill the world was still nascent then. > >> > >> Arendt argues that the “universal rights of man” were articulated at a > time when the number and sizes of groups of stateless people was on the > rise. But at the end of the various competitions, this notion of “man” was > diaphanous enough that these supposed “rights” didn’t actually protect > anybody who wasn’t already being protected by a state under its charter. > The waves of the stateless was both a human calamity in its own terms, but > also a source of stress that the totalitarians were able to use to activate > the masses into motion in “the movements” as she calls them. She even > called the Israel-Palestine disaster exactly, right away at the beginning > of its formation. Saying that, because Europe had never properly corrected > its problem of generating stateless people, it then exported that problem > to the middle east by constructing a new class of stateless people, now the > Palestinian Arabs. Much else, of course, has always been ongoing in the > region, with its local > >> interests and competitions, of course, so one doesn’t want to seek > one-factor analyses. But this one factor, for the part it plays, seems > exactly rightly articulated by her, to me. > >> > >> What the colleague told me is that Snyder wanted to check whether this > was a good argument, and followed it up by a comparison of the situation of > Romanian Jews, who were given statehood, to the many others who were not, > through the era of the two world wars. He concludes that Arendt’s analysis > is a good one, though there were other stresses in Romania at the time that > make deconvolving the various threads of causation something one has to put > in work to do. > >> > >> I like these kinds of work put in by historians, when they are done > really well. > >> > >> Eric > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 11, 2024, at 5:46, Jon Zingale <jonzing...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> I appreciate Timothy's warning for why historians should be sensitive > to the use of telic political exposition. That is, he shows why defining > telos in terms of finality or pre-determination is both useful and > important. In the lecture, Timothy describes a well-known tyrant's *love > letter* to a nation, which I find strangely reminiscent of Frank Booth's > threat to Jeffrey Beaumont in Blue Velvet. The telos expressed is one of > inevitability. Timothy warns: > >>> > >>> "When a tyrant makes an argument for how history *has to be*, then > some of the forces that are actually resonant in history get classified as > being ahistorical or nonhistorical or exotic or alien." > >>> > >>> He then elaborates on how this Tyrant's premise and derived predicates > lead to a logic of ethnic cleansing, a foundation or a rationale for war. I > have just started the lecture series. I hope it remains this rich. For > those interested, the lecture is queued to where this post is intended to > be a reference. > >>> > >>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJczLlwp-d8&list=PLh9mgdi4rNewfxO7LhBoz_1Mx1MaO6sw_&index=1&t=720s > < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJczLlwp-d8&list=PLh9mgdi4rNewfxO7LhBoz_1Mx1MaO6sw_&index=1&t=720s > > > >>> > >>> While I am personally appalled at what is happening in Ukraine, I am > not intending to post here on politics. I am interested in Timothy's > modelling of the argument, how important it is to his argument that one > does not erase human agency when describing human history. His perspective > reminds me of why it is important to know *for what use* a person fixes the > meaning of a word like telos. > > > > -- > > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: 5/2017 thru present > > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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