If you live with a baby you see that they have knowledge that can't be based on
"data".
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 2:50 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com
<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
How?____
__ __
*From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
*Sent:* Monday, March 6, 2023 12:50 PM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com
<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT and William James____
__ __
>And we humans are different?____
__ __
In a word, yes.____
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM____
__ __
On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 12:14 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com
<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:____
*/However, it's important to remember that there are also important
differences between a large language model and human consciousness. While a
large language model can generate text that may seem to flow like a stream of
consciousness, it does not have the same kind of subjective experience that
humans do, and its output is based solely on statistical patterns in the input
it has been trained on./*____
____
And we humans are different? ____
____
On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 11:51 AM Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com
<mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:____
Also second EricS's appreciation for having someone else(s)
maintain a coherent conversation for the myriad ideas that it allows me to
explore without being central to the maintenance of the thread. I realize
this may be almost pure tangent to others, so I rarely expect anyone to take my
bait unless it is to correct any egregious mis-attributions or think-utational
fallacies.____
Starting with Glen's assertion/suggestion/assumption that there is not mind-stuff and body stuff, just body stuff: I appeal to the
general abstraction of Emergence and use Russell Standish's example in his "Theory of Nothing
<https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/967936.Theory_Of_Nothing?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=GgXJ0ISQei&rank=1>" that a
water molecule is not wet... wetness is a property of aggregates of water molecules. I would jump a dozen layers of emergent-bootstrapping from
there to assert that "mind stuff", if it ever makes sense, is an emergent property of "body stuff". But by analogy would not
want to say that wetness (and other properties of bulk water molecules) is not strictly "molecular dynamics stuff". And even if one did
that, the recursion/reduction-ad-absurdum requires that one acknowledge/notice/invoke that the properties of any molecule is "emergent"
from the elementary particles from which it might be composed. ____
I think we all believe in free-electrons, protons, neutrons but
also recognize that *most* of our observed universe is shaped not by *those
properties* (much less the properties of quarks and gluons or 10d loops of
abstract things we call strings) but rather by the properties (once again, not
of molecular dynamics or even chemical reactions) but biological functions,
and socio-economic-political functions as well. I *am* however, sensitive
to the idea that where and how we draw the line between mind/body stuff can be
important in any given argument, and that sometimes dropping that line
altogether may be useful?____
The above riff on Mind-Stuff v Body-Stuff is really an intro into thoughts about how
syntax and semantics might bootstrap sequentially. It feels to me that the syntax of one level of
abstraction yields an *emergent semantics* which in turn becomes the *syntax* of the next
"level". I do acknowledge that Glen has made some arguments (and references) that are
against the very abstraction of "levels" and that may well be the hole in everything I'm
unrolling here, but for the moment, I feel I have a clear picture of a POSET of syntax/semantics,
if not a full Hierarchy... ____
This also backs me into the Platonic ideations with all the charms and criticisms
already dancing as virtual (ideational) particles around that. I will go back to reading A
Theory of Nothing
<https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/967936.Theory_Of_Nothing?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=GgXJ0ISQei&rank=1>...
and try to keep my offerings here under 10 pages each...____
On 3/4/23 4:32 AM, Santafe wrote:____
It’s helpful to have a conversation being maintained by
somebod(ies) else, to which one can be a bystander without the distraction of
coming up with contributions to it. Things can suggest themselves that get
pushed out of awareness when one is carrying the discourse and figuring out
what to do next within it.____
____
In reading the below, about the time I got to the lines:____
____
The mind-body problem is the philosophical question of how
the mind and body are related. One of the main issues is how mental processes
such as thoughts, emotions, and consciousness are related to physical processes
in the brain and body.____
I was prompted with a term to refer to these mental/physical
things.____
____
First, my sense of all this is one of witnessing structures in
conversation. Maybe I am more primed to that because with ChatGPT as the
topic, one fronts awareness of conversation as somewhat free-floating from its
semantic ground. As tokens in conversation, it is perfectly sensible to say
that (thoughts, emotions, consciousness) are in a category Mental, while
(weakness, hunger, itching) go into a category Physical. Not only is it okay
to say they fit tolerably into “categories” (or “classes”); the reason they do
so is that they are connected by all sorts of linguistic usage relations. The
relations probably in no small part bring about the stability of the
categorical sense of the terms.____
____
But what word do we then use to refer to such classes in
speech? I would use the word “registers”. The Mental is a register of
conversation about events, and the Physical is another register.____
____
Jochen’s email below has ChatGPT saying James referred to these
as “aspects” of various bodily or embodied events. Sometimes I’m okay with a
word like “aspects”, but it invites essentialist thinking. That the event is
like a computer-language object, which has properties (the aspects) that define
its interface, and not only are the properties ascribable to the object, but
their status as defined elements of the interface is also a real-thing, and not
merely a frame-dependent convenient compression. But using “aspects”
thoughtlessly does two things: it makes essentialism a habit, which I think
will often be invalid, and it neglects the communications role that “register”
highlights.____
____
I would attach this to Glen’s fairly terse characterization
that there is no mind-stuff contrasted with body-stuff, but just one kind of
stuff, which if we have to choose a word for it we can call body-stuff. From a
perspective of aspects, the terse version could be closer to or further from a
more fine-grained description, depending on whether the essentialist view is
more or less appropriate for one or another phemonenon we want to discuss. But
I think the idea that speech provides us certain conventional registers to
bound discussions of phenomena, and that these too may be better- or worse-fit
to the organization of the phenomena themselves, is another fair fine-graining
of the terse characterization, running somewhat parallel to the aspects or
essences fine-graining (though, as always, connected to it through a kind of
message-passing and filtering for structural agreement).____
____
Eric____
____
____
____
On Feb 28, 2023, at 5:23 PM, Jochen Fromm<j...@cas-group.net>
<mailto:j...@cas-group.net> wrote:____
____
I enjoy talking with ChatGPT about famous scientists,
thinkers, writers and philosophers. Because it is trained on vast amounts of
data it knows them all: Pascal, Cervantes, Dante, Hugo, Goethe, Leibniz,
Newton, Humboldt, Shakespeare,... It can summarize almost any book which is
remarkable. Today I have asked it about William James and Anil Seth____
____
Me: You certainly have heard of William James, one of the
fathers of Psychology?____
____
ChatGPT: Yes, I'm familiar with William James. He was an American
philosopher and psychologist who is often referred to as the "father of American
psychology." He made significant contributions to the development of psychology as a
scientific discipline, and his ideas and writings continue to influence psychology and
related fields to this day.____
____
Some of James' most influential contributions to psychology include his theory
of functionalism, which emphasized the study of the purpose and function of behavior and mental
processes, rather than their underlying structures; his work on consciousness, which he famously
described as a "stream" of continuously changing thoughts and perceptions; and his
exploration of the relationship between the mind and the body, which he called the "mind-body
problem."____
____
James also wrote extensively on a wide range of topics, including
religion, philosophy, and human nature. His most famous book, "The Principles of
Psychology," was published in 1890 and is still considered a classic in the
field.____
____
Me: Can you summarize his book "The Principles of
Psychology"?____
____
ChatGPT: Certainly! "The Principles of Psychology" is a
comprehensive and influential textbook that William James published in 1890. It aimed to
provide a broad overview of the field of psychology at the time, covering topics such as
perception, emotion, thought, consciousness, and the nature of the self.____
____
The book is organized into two main sections. The first
section focuses on the lower-level processes of sensation and perception,
including topics such as attention, memory, and learning. The second section
focuses on higher-level mental processes, such as reasoning, judgment, and
emotion.____
____
Throughout the book, James emphasized the importance of
studying mental processes in their natural context and stressed the need for
psychology to be closely linked to biology and other natural sciences. He also
developed the theory of functionalism, which argued that the purpose and
function of mental processes are more important to understanding them than
their underlying structures.____
____
Overall, "The Principles of Psychology" was a landmark work
that helped establish psychology as a distinct scientific discipline and influenced
generations of psychologists and other scientists.____
____
Me: William James said: "Thoughts themselves are the
thinkers". What does he mean?____
____
ChatGPT: When William James said "thoughts themselves are the
thinkers," he was expressing his belief in what is often called the "stream of
consciousness" view of the mind. James believed that the mind is not a fixed entity or
substance, but rather a constantly changing stream of thoughts, feelings, and sensations.____
____
According to James, our thoughts are not the products of a separate
entity or "thinker" within us, but rather they are the result of the ongoing
activity of the mind itself. In other words, the mind is not a passive receptacle for
thoughts that are generated elsewhere, but an active process that generates thoughts and
experiences as it goes along.____
____
This view is closely related to James' broader philosophy
of pragmatism, which emphasized the importance of understanding things in terms
of their practical implications and effects. For James, the idea that thoughts
themselves are the thinkers was not just a theoretical claim about the nature
of the mind, but a practical way of understanding how we can change and shape
our own thoughts and experiences. By understanding the workings of our own
minds, James believed, we can take an active role in shaping our own lives and
achieving our goals.____
____
Me: He also coined the term "stream of consciousness" which
suggests that consciousness flows like a river. What does he want to say by using this
metaphor?____
____
ChatGPT: When William James coined the term "stream of
consciousness," he was using a metaphor to describe his view of the mind as a
constantly flowing and changing stream of thoughts, feelings, and sensations.____
____
The metaphor of a stream suggests that consciousness is not
a static or fixed entity, but rather a dynamic and fluid process that is always
in motion. The stream of consciousness is always moving forward, and we can
never step into the same stream twice. Similarly, the content of our
consciousness is always changing, as new thoughts, feelings, and sensations
arise and fall away.____
____
By using the metaphor of a stream, James was also
highlighting the interconnectedness of our thoughts and experiences. Just as a
river is made up of many different streams and tributaries, our consciousness
is made up of many different thoughts and experiences that are constantly
interacting and influencing each other.____
____
Overall, the metaphor of the stream of consciousness
captures the dynamic and ever-changing nature of our mental lives, and
highlights the importance of understanding the ongoing flow of thoughts and
experiences that make up our conscious experience.____
____
Me: A constantly flowing stream of thoughts is similar to
what a large language model is perceiving and producing, isn't it?____
____
ChatGPT: Yes, the metaphor of the stream of consciousness
can be similar to how a large language model like me perceives and produces
language. Just as consciousness is often described as a constantly flowing
stream of thoughts and experiences, a large language model like me is
constantly processing and generating language in response to the input it
receives.____
____
Like the stream of consciousness, a large language model is
always in motion, constantly analyzing and generating language based on the
patterns and structures it has learned from the vast amounts of text it has
been trained on. And just as consciousness is made up of many different
thoughts and experiences that are interconnected and constantly interacting, a
large language model's output is made up of many different words and phrases
that are generated in response to each other.____
____
However, it's important to note that there are also
important differences between a large language model and the human mind. While
a large language model can generate language that may seem to flow like a
stream of consciousness, it does not have the same kind of subjective
experience that humans do. A large language model does not have feelings,
emotions, or a sense of self, and its output is based solely on statistical
patterns in the input it has been trained on.____
____
Me: What is James' solution to the mind-body problem?____
____
ChatGPT: William James was a philosopher and psychologist
who made important contributions to the field of psychology and philosophy of
mind, including his exploration of the mind-body problem.____
____
The mind-body problem is the philosophical question of how
the mind and body are related. One of the main issues is how mental processes
such as thoughts, emotions, and consciousness are related to physical processes
in the brain and body.____
____
James approached the mind-body problem from a pragmatic perspective,
emphasizing the practical consequences of different ways of thinking about the problem.
He proposed what is known as a "radical empiricist" approach, which suggested
that the mind and body are not separate entities, but rather different aspects of a
single reality that is constantly in flux.____
____
According to James, the mind and body are both part of the
same universe, and they are both subject to the same laws of nature. Mental
events are not caused by physical events in the brain, nor are physical events
caused by mental events. Instead, James argued that the mind and body are two
aspects of a larger, more complex reality that cannot be fully understood by
examining either one in isolation.____
____
In other words, James rejected the traditional mind-body
dualism that posits a sharp distinction between mind and matter, and instead
proposed a more holistic view that recognizes the deep interdependence of the
mind and body. While James' solution to the mind-body problem remains
controversial, his ideas continue to influence contemporary debates in
philosophy and psycholoy.____
____
Me: Let us return to the idea of thoughts themselves as the
thinkers. This implies that one thought triggers another and is replaced by it,
just like water in a stream is replaced by other water, which in turn is
replaced too, and so on and so forth. No thought can remain permanently, only
return like a wave to the shore. Is this what James means by a stream of
consciousness?____
____
ChatGPT: Yes, you are correct. James' idea that "thoughts themselves are
the thinkers" is closely related to his concept of the "stream of consciousness."
According to James, the mind is not a fixed entity or substance, but rather a constantly changing
stream of thoughts, feelings, and sensations. This stream of consciousness is always flowing and
evolving, with one thought leading to another and so on.____
____
Just as water in a stream is replaced by other water, which
is in turn replaced by more water, the content of our consciousness is also
constantly changing, with one thought or experience giving rise to the next.
And just as no water in a stream can remain in one place permanently, no
thought can remain permanently in the stream of consciousness. Thoughts and
experiences may return or be remembered, but they are always changing in
relation to the ongoing flow of the stream of consciousness.____
____
Overall, James' metaphor of the stream of consciousness
captures the dynamic and ever-changing nature of our mental lives, highlighting
the ongoing flow of thoughts and experiences that make up our conscious
experience.____
____
Me: Does this idea of William James feel familiar to you as
a large language model?____
____
ChatGPT: As a large language model, I do not have the same
kind of subjective experience as humans do, so I don't experience a stream of
consciousness in the same way that humans do. However, the concept of a stream
of consciousness does have some relevance to how I operate.____
____
Like the stream of consciousness, the input and output of a
large language model are constantly changing and evolving, with one word or
phrase leading to another. When generating text, a large language model takes
into account the context of the input it has received, along with the patterns
and structures it has learned from the massive amounts of text it has been
trained on. This can lead to output that has a flowing, interconnected quality,
similar to the way thoughts and experiences flow in a stream of
consciousness.____
____
However, it's important to remember that there are also
important differences between a large language model and human consciousness.
While a large language model can generate text that may seem to flow like a
stream of consciousness, it does not have the same kind of subjective
experience that humans do, and its output is based solely on statistical
patterns in the input it has been trained on.____
____
Me: That's true. It is still fascinating.____
____
ChatGPT: Yes, it is certainly fascinating how the concept
of a stream of consciousness can be applied to different domains and systems,
including the functioning of large language models. The idea of a constantly
flowing and evolving stream of thoughts and experiences is a rich metaphor that
has many different applications and implications. It has inspired a great deal
of philosophical and psychological inquiry over the years, and continues to be
an important area of investigation in contemporary research.____
