I didn't say anything. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Fri, May 13, 2022, 6:33 PM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> wrote: > If one wants to translate subjective experience into a narrative, or > compare & contrast experiences, then negotiating some language is > necessary. If one wants to carefully compare experiences, then one must > be prepared to make the language precise. The language could be > “equations”, or some computer program or some careful use of the English > language, or it could be some use of a well-modelled physical system to > mimic another physical system, etc. But it is must to be possible to > create experiments and evaluate the results in an objective, reasoned way > using a shared, deconstructable language. This says nothing about the > Big Picture of the diverse things that happen in the universe by itself, of > course. But the (presumably) narrow window we have on the whole universe > can be categorized into knowledge we share – objective language, and > private experiences we don’t know how to share, or are too large and > complicated to compress into a readable academic paper (e.g. some massive > generative learning system). If one wants to go further and say there are > some experiences that can’t, in principle, be shared, that’s fine, but then > shut up about it already! There’s nothing to **talk** about because it > is private **and** subjective **and** opaque. > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West > *Sent:* Friday, May 13, 2022 4:51 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] quotes and questions > > > > I will channel McGilchrist here, not assert my own opinions/reasoning: > > > > The argument you have posited is an example of left-brain arrogance *(NOT > MARCUS ARROGANCE)* in assuming that the left-brain perception and > apprehension, a totally reductionist and representationalist one, of the > universe is the only truth. All that holism, connectedness, empathy, > stochastic dynamism, etc. that the right-brain believes to be truth is > woo-woo nonsense and it can be ignored. > > > > There is also the purely pragmatic problem, ala the 19th century physics > of Mach, that if you had perfect knowledge of every particle in the > universe at time 1 you could predict with perfect accuracy its state at > time 2. Replicating the totality of sensors and the variable range of > sensitivity in context (e.g. changes in pressure as the water cools as a > function of distance from jet), plus the variability in the pattern of > sensors that are simultaneously reporting, and, and, and > > > > Even if true in principle, it is pragmatically impossible. > > > > davew > > > > > > On Fri, May 13, 2022, at 3:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > I am sure I have said it dozens of times before: Create a robot > > > covered in sensors of similar pressure and temperature sensitivity. > > > Have it sit in the tub and use some algorithm to learn the distribution > > > of the sensors and how relates to the performance of its own motor > > > system. > > > > > >> On May 13, 2022, at 3:36 PM, Prof David West <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >> > > >> On 5/12/22 13:56, Jon Zingale wrote: > > >>> An interesting property of turbulence is that it need not be a > statement about fluids, but rather a property entailed by a system of > equations. > > >> > > >> McGilchrist would assert that the "reality" that is apprehended by the > left-brain is precisely that set of abstract equations. However, the > right-brain apprehension of "reality" is the totality of the experience of > sitting in the spa and feeling the bubbles and jets caress your body. > > >> > > >> The latter is not expressible in equations. > > >> > > >> davew > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> On Fri, May 13, 2022, at 1:47 PM, glen wrote: > > >>>> On 5/12/22 10:32, Steve Smith wrote: > > >>>> I personally don't think "Turbulent Flow" is an oxymoron. > > >>> > > >>> Exactly! That's the point. By denouncing negation, I'm ultimately > > >>> denouncing contradiction in all it's horrifying forms. It's judo, not > > >>> karate. > > >>> > > >>>> On 5/12/22 13:56, Jon Zingale wrote: > > >>>> An interesting property of turbulence is that it need not be a > statement about fluids, but rather a property entailed by a system of > equations. > > >>> > > >>> I'm a bit worried about all the meaning packed into "property", > > >>> "entailed", and "system of equations". But as long as we read > > >>> "equations" *very* generously, then I'm down. > > >>> > > >>>> On 5/12/22 19:54, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > >>>> Unitary operators are needed. Apply a Trumping operator you get a > Biden and apply another one to get a Trump back. To make this work a > bunch of ancillary bits are needed to record all the wisdom that Trump > destroys. I am afraid we are dealing with a dissipative system, though. > > >>> > > >>> IDK. The allowance of unitary operators seems to be a restatement of > > >>> orthogonality. In a world where no 2 variates/objects can be perfectly > > >>> separated, there can be no unitary operators. (Or, perhaps every > > >>> operator has an error term. f(x) → y ∪ ε) I haven't done the work. > But > > >>> it seems further that we can define logics without negation and logics > > >>> without currying. Can we define logics with neither? What's the > > >>> expressive power of such a persnickety thing? Is it that such a thing > > >>> can't exist? Or merely that our language is incapable of talking about > > >>> that thing with complete faith? Biden is clearly not not(Trump), at > > >>> least if the object of interest is "too damned {old, white, male}". If > > >>> that's the object, clearly Biden ≡ Trump and ∀x|x(Trump) = x(Biden) ∪ > > >>> ε, where |ε| >> |x(Trump)-x(Biden)|. > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ > > >>> > > >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > > >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > > >>> bit.ly/virtualfriam > > >>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present > > >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > >> > > >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > bit.ly/virtualfriam > > >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > >> archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > > > bit.ly/virtualfriam > > > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > archives: 5/2017 thru present > > > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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