I didn't read the article but that last thing i want are horses. They get hurt, get sick, and they step on your feet. Also, cows are a major source of methane, a greenhouse gas. I suspect horses aren't but still...
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 4:08 PM David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> wrote: > I agree. > > There are good versions of Luddism that show some perspectives, and others > that probably only show limits of capacity or imagination. There are > further limits to what small groups of people can know with any depth, or > keep track of. > > The question of whether a reversion to animal traction is the only thing > long-term sustainable, because our materials science operates so far > outside any true recycling loops — whether or not we all die as the only > alternative — is one I am willing to take seriously, and would be > interested to claim a robust answer to. > > To do this fully and well would be desirable IMO. But again, who will > bell that cat? > > Eric > > > On Jan 21, 2022, at 5:45 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote: > > In places that article is dismissive where it doesn't need to be, since so > many of its points are strong. > There are different approaches to solar and fusion for example that aren't > included, instead arguing that horses are the answer! > We'll all die before those solutions are adopted. I am sure of that. > > Marcus > ------------------------------ > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of David Eric Smith < > desm...@santafe.edu> > *Sent:* Friday, January 21, 2022 2:00 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics > > Some of the condensations in this thread, as causal interpretations of > social dynamics, are real gems. They are much more interesting as claims > than the endlessly recycled platitudes that seem to be all I am seeing in > punditry. > > I have wondered about sending the following to the list, but this is > probably a good thread in which to do it: > https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,wGOZJU7h7DQo6vunXv3upUOpfYLxwn02GPFhQoWQ-CkxB0yT-deimBYChsrihRKdLvE2wlF_TXBD5gep_51HWBGZTZlFJ9r8pDwJEUahxis4z9IyqMhl-iy3&typo=1> > > The claims are about important things. They say that the sustainability > rhetoric is so riddled with pie in the sky that it is not clear that an > analysis of what we can actually do would even support goal-setting along > the lines that are currently practiced. For certain apps built on the > libraries of sustainability, like the rhetoric of Green New Deal, the > most-central aspiration (not curtailing population and energy consumption, > and just replacing their sources) may actually be impossible in the sense > that perpetual motion machines are impossible. The other important factor > is that we don’t get the dodge “but in the long run”, because the claim is > that in a relatively short run we are all dead (or at least a great many of > us, and the rest have greatly reduced options for what to do about > anything). > > The important thing about the article (I know the author Rees) is that it > tries to back up its claims with analysis where possible. Some of the > citations I consider a bit dodgy, but others are probably sound. That does > _not_ mean I am claiming the conclusions of the paper are right. I haven’t > done any shred of the work it would take me to backfill that tree of > citations and take responsibility for deciding which of them I understand > to be right. > > It is also important (to me, for my own reasons) to say that I do not mean > _any_ blame for hypocrisy or bad faith toward a lot of the serious > sustainability people, or even the GND advocates. They work partly in a > realm of human persuasion, and they are trying not to let the perfect > undermine doing _something_ that might be good, or at least a little > better. I don’t know how many of the GND rhetoricians even have a detailed > understanding of our current situation, and among those (if there are > any), how many would agree that it is as bad as Rees asserts. There might > be some, who would still do what persuasion they can because they don’t > have ideas for what might be more helpful. > > I should also add that there is a lot not covered in this particular > paper, where I have listened to claims of large unavoidable cascading > failures. Climate change leading to failure of Himalayan snowpacks that > are the headwaters of rivers that supply drinking water, sanitation, > irrigation, and hydropower to something like 1/4 of the world’s population, > through infrastructure that has been built over a century, and can’t simply > be moved or replaced. That stops working and people start moving, and then > all the stresses we already see around migration get amplified to much > higher levels. etc. Those, too, I have not tried to either evaluate or > get sources I can trust blindly. But if they are real, they belong in view > as well. > > Finally, I want to distance myself a bit from the affect and some overall > impression in this piece, or by these authors. I have no interest in > whether something is heterodox or any other kind of dox. The misanthropy > that comes through in their scornful delivery in places, but also their > claim that there are “graceful” exits with so little as 1-child policies, > are to me departures (understandable, but still departures) from the thing > that makes the article valuable, which is the substance of its claims about > what exists and what can be assembled into systems. I think one can keep > the claims as important questions and let the other stuff go its own ways. > > Anyway, more than I know how to chew on, > > Eric > > > > On Jan 21, 2022, at 11:47 AM, glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Well, except that this solipsism betrays a profound similarity between the > cheerful billionaire exploiter and the unfixable deplorables. It's almost > psychotically self-centered. I can imagine a slow, corrupting process where > I would if I could, as well. But that transformation would have to be > complete closure to prevent any light of empathy or sympathy from peeking > in and popping the boil. > > I suppose people like Gates are more interesting than Musk, shambling > about extruding money according to an opaque template ... less > transparently ideological than Musk's profiteering. All philanthropy smacks > of this sort of thing, though, Effective Altruism being the worst of the > bunch. Power corrupts. It's not a lesson the non-powerful can actually > learn, though. So it's a good thing to keep around a nicely scaled > gradation of the super rich and the destitute poor, with some walkability > up and down the scale. That way we can, as a collective, re-learn the > lesson that power corrupts on a steady basis. The assumption of equality > prevents that lesson from being re-learned. The absurdity of philanthropy > and poverty are "collateral damage" in service of the latent trait, spoken > as a well-off white man born into a racist patriarchy, anyway. > > On 1/21/22 08:31, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > If anything, Musk is suspicious because he is not overtly apocalyptic. > Some criticisms of Don’t Look Up were along the lines that it fails to > try to persuade a change of course in favor of being condescending. That > was the whole point of the movie: Comic relief among the reasonable who > must suffer those who are just unfixable. Musk is amusing because he is > cheerful going about his billionaire life as it all comes crashing down. > Doing what he can to profit from insane energy policy of the last several > generations and making what contingency plans he can. I certainly would if > I could. > > On Jan 21, 2022, at 7:48 AM, glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > This video essay concludes with the same point: > > The Fake Futurism of Elon Musk > https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y > > Perhaps a better title would have been "Muskian Futurism is > Eschatological". But there's some deeper stuff there in the middle of the > video about the appeal of geezers like Sanders to "the youth", perhaps > dovetailing with our prior discussion of the [opt|pess]imism vs > hope-despair plane. The mistake the Muskians seem to make is conflating > Musk's "apocalyptic help the rich survive the end times capitalism" with > the good old fashioned future orientation of classic science fiction ... > and, perhaps, even the optimistic glossing of the present by authors like > Steven Pinker. While Pinker seems to be a hypnotized neoliberal cultist, > his views still retain some sense of "shared values" in the Enlightenment, > where something, vague as it is, like equality founds the whole > perspective. Egalitarian utopias like Star Trek were, it seemed to me, > standard fare for classic sci-fi. Gibson, Blade Runner, et al turned that > dark and brought us (perhaps correlated with the rise of Hell and Brimstone > Christianity) to Muskianism. > > But this is all just from my nostalgizing as a dying white man. It would > be interesting to see a disinterested historian present the plectic arcs. > > On 1/20/22 14:33, glen wrote: > Even if there are multiple paths to nearly equivalent optima, each unit > (human, hospital, corporation, state) has to share some values with the > others in order for the the optima to be commensurate. > > > > -- > glen > Theorem 3. 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