On 1/10/22 8:56 AM, glen wrote:
Right. I hope that's the case, not merely that some of us are more
plastic, but that perhaps any of us could even practice being more
plastic. But that's just hope ... hope can be debilitating.
I recently listened to Krista Tippet's interview with Desmond Tutu circa
2010 and he made an important distinction between "optimism" and
"hope". I wonder how much folks here make their own distinction and if
one is more prone to debilitation than the other?
On 1/10/22 07:50, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I meant that some people are genetically set up to be more plastic
and dynamic than others, and one way this manifests itself is in
sexual preference. If one finds a genetic signature for
homosexuality, it could just be the deeper thing.
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*From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of glen
<geprope...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, January 10, 2022 8:25 AM
*To:* friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality
One of the themes I've seen talks about a slight correlation between
the presence of homosexuality in a family with female fecundity
(counter intuitive to those who talk about homosexuals having
children). Another theme is that it's largely epigenetic; I suppose a
slightly deeper in mechanism than Jochen's hormonal proposition.
Both of those appeal to my sense that evolution doesn't separate
lineage from ontogeny. There's no crisp line between organism and
family, no crisp line between families, species, generations, or
anything else, which approaches SteveS' third point. The selection is
as "fractal" as the crinkly space in which it arises.
I wish I were as libertarian as Marcus in this context, where we're
all ideally plastic and dynamic. But my sense is not only that
historicity and accumulation outstrip any plasticity, at least by our
mid 30s or so, but also that there's no place for will or intention
in most feelings of orientation. It seems people often feel fated or
even trapped by their orientation. If it's plastic at all, its
trajectory is at least chaotic, not amenable to reverse engineering.
But, as Jochen points out, we're much less likely to engage in every
speculation we could because it's such a sensitive topic.
Thanks for all the ideas.
On 1/9/22 08:30, Steve Smith wrote:
A couple of things as yet not obviously (to me) introduced into this
discussion:
1) Survival of the Fittest might better be Legacy Survival of
the Fittest. Evolution depends on successful *reproduction* and in
fact, a string of successful reproductions. I have a number of
childless friends who came from parents with large families... but
who only had 2 or fewer siblings themselves and have few if any
nieces and nephews. Their grandparent's "fecundity" has officially
petered out. I'm not saying this is a good nor a bad thing, just a
break in the "survival of the fittest" and an illustration that
simply being good at spawning lots of children isn't enough... they
have to survive and then reproduce themselves, rinse, repeat.
2) Heredity/Evolotion 101 in college made the point that the
"selfish" gene for men suggests that one's nieces and nephews by a
maternal sister are (closer to) guaranteed to share 1/4 of his genes
than the (best case) 1/2 for his own (presumed) children (worst
case 0%). The same (almost) logic applies to women who are
childless (for whatever reason)... their sister's children are a
genetic legacy for them. Entirely anecdotally, many of the
(childless) gay men and women I know are pretty good aunts and
uncles... (though this can be explained many ways).
3) And of course, the object of heredity has shifted from the
Gene to something much larger, more fuzzy, and perhaps (much) more
interesting? What *cultural* traits might be positively correlated
with being homosexual or more aptly ambi/bi/pan/poly sexual? It
is no longer exclusively the case that being gay deals you out of
being a parent (raising adopted children, en-vivo, en-vitro
fertilization, etc), so one's contribution can be to a continued
*cultural* or *memetic* legacy of a "way of being" which is very
Lamarckian.
On 1/9/22 3:15 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
This topic is a minefield, because it is related like the
controversial "race" term to the personal identify. Black people
for instance score higher in 100m or 200m runs than white people as
the data clearly shows, which means their genes somehow must give
them more power for this particular competition. Still all people
belong to the same race. As you know this topic is very
controversial and precarious. For sex it is similar.
There are genes for the two major sex hormones, estrogen for women
and testosterone for men. Males have one X and Y chromosome,
females have two X chromosomes. Therefore there are clearly genetic
differences between men and women.
Just how girls who are subject to estrogen develop an affection for
boys is unclear. The same for boys who are subject to testosterone
in their development. My hypothesis is that the mechanism works
like "develop an affection for those who look the same but
different" during the time the sex hormones start to work. Once
they have a preference, addiction mechanisms kick in which tell the
individuals to do more of that which they like. Something like that
where the target of affection is path dependent and not completely
hardwired.
In general I would say that homosexuality is a byproduct of the
mating process. This would explain why homosexuality continues to
exist in evolutionary systems although these individuals have less
or no offspring. Like coal power plants which produce CO2 and
nuclear power plants which produce nuclear waste, the mating
process produces losers who lost for whatever reason in the
competition for mates and have no offspring. Among those some may
pick a mate of the same sex, because the sex drive is hard to
ignore and not completely hardwired.
This is just my rough idea how it could work in principle. It can
be wrong and it is a delicate topic. There are many books about the
sociologal and psychological aspects of it. In the library I
usually ignore them because it is not a topic I am especially
interested in. Therefore my knowledge is incomplete in this area,
and someone else here can probably explain it better.
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: thompnicks...@gmail.com
Date: 1/9/22 01:39 (GMT+01:00)
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
<friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality
Well, first things first. Is there any evidence for a genetic
basis for homosexuality. You can, of course, have a trait that it
is chromosomally determined (if not genetically so) and still not
heritable. Sex, for instance. Sex is not heritable.
My assumption has always been that homosexuality might be influence
by innate factors, but not be heritable.
I haven’t read up on that subject for 2 decades.
Anybody know any facts?
n
Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com
<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>>
*From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Marcus
Daniels
*Sent:* Saturday, January 8, 2022 5:57 PM
*To:* FriAM <friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality
It seems like such a dumb question to ask. Why should any
preference have a genetic basis? How about look for a gene that
encodes a preference for plush carpeting or a preference for
Flamenco music? And what about those men that like short women?!
Maybe a man is kind of like a tall woman, on average? And why
would anyone expect that it would be bimodal? If it were what
would that tell us? One could imagine homosexuality is just one
manifestation of cognitive or emotional flexibility. That by
itself would explain why it is enduring, because those properties
would give a person an advantage over less flexible people. Some
fraction of the people with that property have heterosexual or
bisexual relationships, and they reproduce and raise children that
thrive. The rigid (heterosexual) types in comparison are prone to
making the same kind of mistakes over and over and their children
suffer for it.
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*From:*Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of ⛧glen
<geprope...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, January 8, 2022 4:13 PM
*To:* FriAM <friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality
I'm in an ongoing argument with a gay friend about how tortured
Darwinian arguments are in accounting for homosexuality. He claims
they're VERY torturous. I'm inclined toward the first mentioned
here: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486
<https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486>
But, were group selection and/or cultural evolution a thing, then
my friend would be more right. Anyone here have a strong opinion?
--
glen
Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.
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