There’s a big difference between referring to Mt Holyoke as a the foremost women’s school vs foremost women-serving school. I doubt Stanford or Harvard would describe themselves as the best women-serving schools while they might describe themselves as best schools for women. Same for Black-serving and Hispanic-serving. Serving adds a lot to how a school regards itself and its programs.
Ed _______________________ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon Santa Fe, NM 87501 505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu <mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu> 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel <http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel> > On Oct 30, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Is it the foremost women's school in the US? Stanford and Harvard might say > not. > > I think all schools mentioned are fine institutions but I have a problem with > "foremost in the ..." which is what Highlands or Manny Aragon claimed. > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 12:28 PM <thompnicks...@gmail.com > <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote: > Or Mt. Holyoke is not a women’s school? > > > > Nick Thompson > > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > > > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On > Behalf Of Angel Edward > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 12:20 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] My plan to disrupt education > > > > If any one would bother to check my original email, I said percentages not > total enrollment in response to Frank’s question. > > > > Would anyone then conclude that because UCSD has more Black students than a > 100% Black student Historical Black Institution, UCSD tops say Howard U in > some definition of Black-serving institutions (which is not arguing that some > students wouldn’t be better off at UCSD). Or that Brandeis is not Jewish > serving. Or College of Santa Fe was not Catholic serving. > > > > Ed > > __________ > > Ed Angel > > Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) > Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico > > 1017 Sierra Pinon > Santa Fe, NM 87501 > 505-984-0136 (home) edward.an...@gmail.com > <mailto:edward.an...@gmail.com> > 505-453-4944 (cell) > http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel <http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel> > > > On Oct 30, 2021, at 11:59 AM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: > > > > Enrollment of 2,787 (NMH) vs. 52,946 (UCSD). > > > > UC San Diego Admits Record 52,946 First-Year and Transfer Students (ucsd.edu) > <https://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/pressrelease/uc-san-diego-admits-record-52946-first-year-and-transfer-students> > > > New Mexico Highlands University | Data USA > <https://datausa.io/profile/university/new-mexico-highlands-university/#enrollment> > > > From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On > Behalf Of Frank Wimberly > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 10:42 AM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] My plan to disrupt education > > > > Which is a greater number 53.7% of Highlands or each of 20-40% of the others? > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 11:34 AM Angel Edward <edward.an...@gmail.com > <mailto:edward.an...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > It only takes a minute or two to find the information on the Web > > > > NMH 53.7% > > > > UCSD 39% > > UCLA 23% > > Arizona 24% > > UNM 37% > > UT Austin 22% > > > > Ed > > __________ > > Ed Angel > > Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) > Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico > > 1017 Sierra Pinon > Santa Fe, NM 87501 > 505-984-0136 (home) edward.an...@gmail.com <mailto:edward.an...@gmail.com> > 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel > <http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel> > > > > On Oct 30, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com > <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > >I think the definition of Hispanic-serving is based on the percentage of > >Hispanic students which is very high at Highlands > > > > I would be surprised if Highlands had a higher number of Hispanic students > than any of the universities I mentioned. Compared to to them Highlands is > small. I wonder why percentage is more important than the total number. > Talk about ethnicism. > > > > > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:58 AM Edward Angel <an...@cs.unm.edu > <mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu>> wrote: > > I think the definition of Hispanic-serving is based on the percentage of > Hispanic students which is very high at Highlands. > > > > The first year I was at UNM, a colleague and I went to career day at > Highlands. Because Highlands lacked an Engineering program, we thought it > would be an excellent opportunity to recruit some of their grads to > Engineering at UNM, The gym was filled with recruiting tables which except > for us were all either from the military or the Ivy League schools trying to > recruit Hispanics. During the morning, not a single student came to our > table. After lunch, a group of young women came to our table, looked at our > materials, and then asked if they needed math to study engineering. When we > said yes, there was a loud “Ugh” and they turned around and left. Only > students we talked to the whole day. > > > > A few years later, David West would come down to UNM once a week to UNM on > his bike to teach a software engineering course. > > > > Around that time, we had a very active NM Chapter of SIGGRAPH in NM. I worked > a lot with Bruce Papier at Highlands who was running a wonderful computer art > program at Highlands. I believe he too was pushed out during the Manny Aragon > era. He passed away in Santa Fe a few years ago. > > > > But what I really want to write about is a related story to David’s at UNM. > At UNM the Latin American (now Latin American and Iberian ) Institute is a > prestigious research and teaching center. It’s founder-director and associate > director were not Hispanics. In the mid-90s, Tom Benavides, a powerful NM > legislator > (http://insidethecapitol.blogspot.com/2004/05/most-excellent-sir-tom-benavides.html > > <http://insidethecapitol.blogspot.com/2004/05/most-excellent-sir-tom-benavides.html>) > insisted the director and associate director be replaced by Hispanics and > when UNM refused, the funding for LAI was removed from the UNM budget. The > result was that UNM had to come up with funds from other projects to support > LAI. > > > > Tom was a very popular legislator from the South Valley, so popular that > there was a movement to create a separate county for the South Valley and > name it after Tom. But then there was his downfall; drinking and wife abuse. > When he lost a reelection, UNM seized on the opportunity and hired him as a > legislative lobbyist. UNM then got back it’s funding for LAI without having > to replace its leadership. > > > > At the time, I was teaching a lot of short courses in Latin America through > the Ibero-American Science and Technology Education Consortium (ISTEC) which > was started at UNM and was administratively under LAI. One of Tom’s duties > (actually rewards) was to attend the yearly ISTEC conferences in Latin > America as did I and usually Rose Mary. Tom was somewhat uncomfortable > outside NM and speaking Spanish, so Rose Mary would often invite him to join > us for dinner. I always learned a lot about the spotted history of NM. > > > > Ed > > _______________________ > > > Ed Angel > > Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) > Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico > > 1017 Sierra Pinon > > Santa Fe, NM 87501 > 505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu <mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu> > 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel > <http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel> > > > > On Oct 29, 2021, at 6:15 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com > <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > During the era of which Dave speaks at New Mexico Highlands i had an > interview for a faculty position in the CS Department there. I wasn't a good > match because they were looking for someone in the area of computers and the > arts. Among my application materials I emphasized my ability to speak > Spanish, my family roots in Central NM, and our adoption of a young child > from Mexico. Someone told me that it was a mistake to mention the > relationship with Mexico because Aragon didn't consider Mexicans to be > Hispanic. To him that word apparently means someone from one of a few > families from Northern NM. > > > > At that time there was material that claimed that Highlands was the foremost > Hispanic serving university in the US. At the time I wondered, "What about > UCSD, UCLA, Arizona, UNM, UTexas, etc?" I think the answer lay in his > definition of Hispanic. > > > > Frank > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 5:39 PM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm > <mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote: > > Manny Aragon was president of Highlands at the time of my program. He hated > me personally for no apparent reason other than my program was gaining > publicity and overshadowing his role as "savior" of Highlands. Also, his > Board of Regents assigned mission was to reduce the white faculty and > increase the Hispanic.Those efforts earned censure for the University, > multiple lawsuits by white faculty all of which Highlands lost; and > eventually Manny's firing as University President. > > > > He arbitrarily and "illegally" (circumventing the faculty and established > procedures) cancelled the program. Students demonstrated at Capital in > protest; dozens of industry leaders, and all of our clients, sent letters in > protest, students directly petitioned Manny to change mind — all to no avail. > > > > A little less than two years after cancelling the program, Manny was > convicted of embezzlement of federal funds and sent to prison for five years. > He was Speaker of the House in the state legislature before coming to > Highlands and nothing but a powerful and corrupt and self-aggrandizing > politician before coming to Highlands and wreaking havoc. > > > > davew > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2021, at 3:33 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: > > Dave, Sounds like a wonderful program. Is it continuing? If not, why not? If > so, how has the structure changed so that it sustains itself as an ongoing > effort? > > > > -- Russ Abbott > > Professor Emeritus, Computer Science > > California State University, Los Angeles > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 12:40 PM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm > <mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote: > > > > Pieter, > > > > Your plans are admirable and exciting.I wish you the best in this endeavor. > If you would have any interest, I would be happy to share my experience in > New Mexico developing and delivering an industry award winning program — the > Software Development Apprenticeship. > > > > We totally blew up the academy. The program had no courses — instead we > defined "competencies" that had to be demonstrated — acknowledged by peers, > professors, and industry professionals — at five different levels: basically > following directions or rote learning; applying knowledge solo; applying in > different context; mentoring others / sharing knowledge; and making an > 'original' contribution or extension to the knowledge. Everyone had to master > all the "competencies" to level 3, but would vary widely by individual > interest in which ones were achieved at higher levels. > > > > We had a "one room schoolhouse" where students worked in teams on real-world > development projects alongside industry professionals, graduate students to > freshmen mixed on each team. > > > > If we had packaged the knowledge delivered in the program into traditional > semester credit courses it would have been the equivalent of two > undergraduate and three graduate degrees. Subjects far transcended > programming and other computer science topics to include business (of course > since business constituted the vast majority of our projects), hard and soft > sciences, writing, presentation, inter-personal and "soft" skills, philosophy > and history (Computer Scientists and Software Engineers are abysmally > ignorant of their own history and the thought foundations of their > discipline), art (including computer graphics of course, but much more), and > math (but probability and statistics and geometry instead of calculus). > > > > Students learned 'on-demand'. The project to which they were assigned would > require some specific knowledge and they would "demand" that learning. > Actually, every six weeks, students would complete a learning plan and the > faculty had to combine them into a set of modules for lecture and > presentation in the ensuing 6-week interval. All teaching took place in the > same open lab/classroom, so everyone either directly or by "osmosis" picked > up on what was being taught. > > > > The program was immensely successful. Our student body came from the poorest > county in the poorest state (sometimes Louisiana would take first place) and > were woefully unprepared for college. But they succeeded: one exemplar > student entered the program lacking even rudimentary user skills like "cut > and paste," but was a team leader and J2EE mentor at the start of his second > semester. (He was also the only one who figured out why the Hero — movie of > same name — did not kill the warlord unifying China in a wonderfully written > essay.) > > > > Our student body was 70% minority (mostly because of where we were and the > mission of the University) and 51-54 percent female. > > > > Half of the students in the first year of the program had papers (not student > presentations but full papers) accepted to OOPSLA and Agile both conferences > had a 90+ percent rejection rate). Every student was place in jobs, often > before graduation and often with the companies who gave us apprenticeship > projects. > > > > The preceding is just bragging, but I am very proud of what we did. > > > > We had two faculty, myself and Pam Rostal and both of us worked 70-90 hour > weeks which would not be sustainable long term. We did attract a lot of > attention and industry "superstars" would drop by to mentor in their > particular area for 2-3 weeks at a time. > > > > If you have interest in any details, please ask off-list and I will be happy > to respond. > > > > davew > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021, at 12:25 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: > > The public education system in South Africa is largely broken. For those who > can afford it, we have very good schools, but the majority cannot and the > education options for them are bleak. > > > > I plan to do something about it. > > > > This is my second attempt. About three years ago I started a school as a > proof of concept with a radical model to have very high quality yet very low > cost education and it failed miserably. (I managed to make plans for the kids > and I don't believe any suffered from the experience - I pulled the plug > before too much harm was done). I've thought, and discussed it a lot, and I'm > ready to roll out my second, very different attempt. > > > > The basis of this is that there are plenty of resources available for free, > and provided you manage the environment properly, kids can and will teach > themselves. > > > > My plan is a model with two legs, both legs offering very high quality > education, but the first leg is relatively expensive and has "bells and > whistles" to attract the wealthy and the second is bare bones to make it > affordable for those kids whose parents can't pay. > > > > The profit from first leg schools then cross-subsidise the costs of the > second leg schools. > > > > The concept for both legs are copied from https://www.khanlabschool.org/ > <https://www.khanlabschool.org/> , adapted for local conditions of course. > The second leg schools will just be a low cost version, but the education > offered will still be world class. > > > > Our academic year starts in January. I'm working flat out to have my first > school of the first leg open in January 2022. Then to have the first school > of the second leg open in January 2023. Then to learn from the experience, > adapt and roll it out so that every child in South Africa has access to world > class education in five years time. > > > > Pieter > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > > > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
