Thanks Steve, yes, I did want to acknowledge some weeks ago, when you mentioned that you had a Leopold connection through your Father’s life and work. It is good to have another post to which I can respond, to acknowledge that you have been heard.
Eric > On Jul 7, 2021, at 12:14 AM, Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > EricS - > > Great and elaborate response to Merle's points/questions as posited. I'm > probably less versed in the jargon that you address than you are, certainly > after your dive into it for this response. > > Your reference to "Soil and Health" and Leopold's life's work reminded me > that my own father was trained up (as much as anyone might be) in the 40's > into the 50's on the best ecological understanding of the time, ultimately in > pursuit of Forest and Range Management (USDA/USFS style) and conveyed to me > the underlying structure/dynamics of a "circular ecology", yet somehow this > eluded him entirely when he embraced Reagan's "trickle down" economics in the > 80s. He went on to be a Rush Limbaugh and Fox/Faux News fan. What would > Aldo think of all that? The tie between ecology and economy is so evident > that perhaps it is easy to miss? > > I liked particularly your point about the Buddhist premise that "misery is > not a goal". When I first heard of a "donut" economy, my mind went straight > to a torus, not an annulus, and imputed lots of possible complex structures > elaborating "circular" into things like helices on the surface of a torus. > Alas, I was overthinking. I *don't* know what to think about your > observation (assertion) that our human population may well exceed the > carrying capacity *even* on the inner boundary of the annulus. For me this, > suggests that we are not thinking smart enough. I don't dispute that human > population has risen to an extravagant level and that we may well be simply > overwhelming the petri dish that is the earth systems. > > What I want to explore is whether our first world, high-technology view of > "minimum necessary for comfort" is biased toward fundamentally > usurious/exploitative sub-systems? I drive an EV (2011 Chevy Volt) because > I was raised in a car-culture which takes it for granted that a 200+ lb human > needs a 3000-6000 lb shell of steel and glass wrapped around them while they > hurtle through the air at 60+mph for 10 or 20 or 50 miles each way to go to > work or fetch a quart of milk. I take for granted that the electric grid (in > my case operated by Jemez Valley Electric Coop that came to be *after* WWII) > is an infinite source of power for me to draw from *to* provide motive force > (and AC/Heat/Stereo) to hurtle along with the greatest of ease. I often > ignore the fact that said Electric Grid spins turbines in a dam just upriver > from me in Abiquiu Lake, lowering the water levels even more than perhaps > irrigation alone would require. Even more acutely, my suck on the grid spins > turbines in the coal-fired plant in the 4 corners area, spewing sulfurous > smoke and CO2 into the already overburdened atmosphere. Some here (and many > elsewhere) will insist that we have not *begun* to load the > atmosphere/biosphere overmuch, but *most* scientists will disagree strongly > with that position. Yet, I glibly treat the 40 miles of range my (extended > range) EV gives me as "free lunch". I sometimes make up an excuse to run to > the store, just to run the batteries down so I can refill them overnight for > *more free lunch*. Tell that to the people living under the cloud of smoke, > or experiencing the subsidence of the land from the water drawn to sluice the > coal from Kayenta to Kaipowarowitz, etc. > > I also grow a few vegetables in my sunroom/backyard and keep a few chickens > to turn my ragweed into high-quality egg-protein... but I *still* purchase an > inestimable amount of food (and other) products at my local grocery which > definitely doesn't source locally. I'm sucking as hard at the California > Central Valley aquifer as I am at the one under Kayenta, AZ. And the > plastic accretion in the Pacific Gyre? I doubt I am clean of that either. > For every 1000 grocery bags I return to the store or stuff neatly inside one > another before sending to the landfill, at least one probably finds it's way > there. And if not there, it is surely caught on the barbed wire of a fence > somewhere nearby. I see them all the time... I'm *sure* they are *somebody > else's* trash, not mine! > > Regarding the solutions we have spent centuries (millennia) to build, I'm > very much with you. The genome does not discard old tricks easily... they > may disappear entirely through some kind of attrition via disuse, but little > is discarded, no matter how much is redacted or elided from use in any given > epoch. This is why I'm a fan of alternative wisdoms (vaguely similar to > DaveW's position perhaps)... whether it is the Eastern portfolio (Taoism, > Confusionism, Vedism, Buddhism, etc) or the Ibrahamics and their precursors > (Zoroaster anyone?) or the divine Feminine or the myriad Pantheons of yore. > I'm not a crystal-gazer by any means, but that does not mean I can entirely > dismiss the myriad ideas and perspectives that come from the (presumed) > fringe. > > I also appreciate your point about "development", but with the ever-standing > caveat of "developing what" and "toward what goal/end/values?". I contend > that Science is about "asking the right question" ever so much more than > "finding the best answer". We are on the cusp of (yet another) > reformulation/refactoring of many of the questions we thought were "the right > ones". In the 80's for example, my engineering brain was busy > noodling on how/whether our fossil-fuel economy could achieve zero net > pollution by somehow magically transforming HC chains and atmospheric O2 into > pure H2O and CO2. Surely someone besides Exxon knew that releasing all that > dinosaur juice into the atmosphere was going to lead to global-scale > problems? I was blithely (belligerently) not-listening until at least a > decade or two after I *could* have heard the early warning system going off. > After our visit to Sweden in 2019, I was taken by Tomas Bjorkland's (Iskaret > Institute) writings, including "the Nordic Secret" which by title sounded > like some kind of Nazi apologism, but instead turned out to be a glimpse into > what "cultural development" through "individual development" might look > like. I don't think it is "the answer", but as "an answer" it might gesture > toward "the right question" regarding individual/cultural development. > > A strong complementary perspective to the myriad variants of our "economies" > is the "gratitude economy" as demonstrated through hundreds of anecdotes, > personal and cultural, in Robin Wall Kimmerer's writings (in particular > Braiding Sweetgrass > <https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17465709-braiding-sweetgrass>). Instead > of exchanging goods and services based on a sense of "what is in it for me", > she outlines a perspective of "I've already recieved my gift from the > world/universe/community, what can I give back in return out of gratitude" vs > the variations on straight bartering, or keeping ledgers or exchanging tokens > of IOU/UoweMe valuation. > > I loved the imagery of Locke and Hume escorting Melville's ship. It is > relevant that Melville's work represents the "first oil boom" which presaged > (and was a precursor to) the fossil fuel boom that fueled and lubricated the > modern industrial revolution. > > - Steve > > On 7/5/21 3:57 PM, David Eric Smith wrote: >> Hi Merle, >> >> The terms you cite are not jargon for me so I will lack the familiarity with >> the social circle that uses them today that you have. >> >> The priorities under the name “circular economy” sound like things I know >> through readings like Sir Albert Howard’s The Soil and Health, which Howard >> structures around what he calls “the law of return”, or points made by Aldo >> Leopold in A Sand County Almanac. The feeds I have had on this come mainly >> through people at the Leopold Center for sustainable ag at Iowa State, which >> the Rs finally managed to completely cut off from any public support in >> 2017, effectively killing it off after many decades in which it was a >> paradigm maker. In some sense one would consider this the commonsense >> foundation of all understanding of ecology, and the premise that any >> long-term sustainable economy must have this aspect of ecological design. >> So I tend to take these as a common starting point for discussion, and want >> to get to the places we get snagged of stuck, which keep us from following >> them out. >> >> On Doughnut, I see from Wikipedia the paper for Oxfam from which the term >> was coined. The parts of that that I think I have spent the most time on >> are the steady-staters, like Herman Daly (who is the Doyen as far as it has >> been presented to me) and then later-generation followers of mostly-Herman’s >> ideas, like Joshua Farley or Peter Victor. But I think there is a very large >> community of steady-staters now, and all of them would also take as their >> premise the start in planetary boundaries. I think they also would follow a >> sort of Buddhist practicality that misery is not a goal; one wants enough >> sustenance to not be in material desperation as a starting point, though >> with too-large population even the realizability of that becomes debatable. >> >> I tend not to prefer throwing out things that took centuries to build, as >> solutions to other problems that we forget when we no longer live under >> them, as beyond reform and incorrigible. (RBG’s throwing away the umbrella >> because you are not getting wet.) I won’t use keywords like Bretton Woods >> because I lack the depth to understand the implications that go into them in >> the current political discourse. But education for skills, >> including difficult, narrow, or abstract ones, is something that I think >> contributes to a good life and not something I want to lose. >> >> If I had to summarize my own view of the goal and the problem, I would >> probably start by saying there are three resources available (referring to >> individual people) but needing investment to develop: talent, character, and >> preparation. To really get the best life and community out of talent, we >> need large diversity of opportunities at all stages, because talent >> undiscovered through experience never even has a chance to get developed. >> Then we also need many choice-points to change tracks, so that talents that >> can get recognized in any of the vast diversity of areas where people could >> have them can then be followed out. Character and community and those >> things are probably not so much in need of system design, as of cultural >> reinforcement along lines that are broadly appreciated in long-standing >> traditional discourse. Preparation requires design of whole life-course >> pipelines, and that again is an institutional matter. It is good to >> recognize that talents and character have independent existence from >> preparation, but would be very wrong to suppose that preparation doesn’t >> matter. Trying to affirmative-action our way to some better solution at a >> few points in higher ed, in a society that creates vastly unequal >> opportunities across the whole developmental course, limits the best >> outcomes we can get. It reminds me of using medications to manage diabetes >> and heart disease, rather than having a life and a diet that don’t create >> those diseases in the first place. The medications are better than >> morbidity and mortality, but a long life of medicated ill-health is not what >> we should settle for. The universities try to reach back and support other >> ed levels here and there, which again counts for something. But ultimately >> what is required is a public commitment, and the universities alone are too >> small to have control over what needs to be moved. >> >> In looking at the reviews to the two books on Meritocracy, I felt like I was >> back in Moby Dick, reading Melville’s summary of Locke and Hume as two >> whales on either side of the ship. Would be good to read them both. Would >> be good to have breathing space to read anything…. >> >> Eric >> >> >> >>> On Jul 6, 2021, at 6:06 AM, Merle Lefkoff <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> David, you have highlighted education as a problem to "solve" within our >>> present economic system. It's too late to "fix" the Bretton Woods system. >>> We have to build a new one, which opens up many adjacent possibilities that >>> are now beyond reach. What do you think about the new models (not really >>> new but possibly transitional) like the "Circular economy" or the "Doughnut >>> economy"? >>> >>> ideas >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 1:02 PM David Eric Smith <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> Merle, >>> >>> From what I have read or heard, the return in benefit per cost for social >>> mobility is much higher for community colleges than for even state-school >>> university-style higher-ed, and their costs have (I think) remained fairly >>> contained. So if we were to ask where we could spend money now and help a >>> lot without the delays and wrestling of a system restructure, that seems to >>> be a sure one. >>> >>> I was concerned that for higher ed as for medical stuff, public funding is >>> only achievable sustainably if it is done together with reduction of costs. >>> This was what bothered me in the sound-bite level descriptions during the >>> presidential campaigns, though as I understand e.g. Sanders’s current >>> position, he is advocating for community colleges at least for now, so >>> reasonable. I am reluctant to support public payment of a thoroughly >>> corrupted system, because that just ratifies and bankrolls it, which is >>> where we have been in agriculture for so many decades. >>> >>> EricC’s note was for me very helpful, but it throws me back into a >>> confusion. If need-based aid is the main driver of cost inflation, and the >>> need-based aid is what we are trying to keep, then what are the elements we >>> can change to remove needless costs? I think back to the fact that I paid >>> about 12k/year as an undergrad, in the middle 1980s, for an education that >>> was arguably as good as could be had anywhere in the world. I had 2k/year >>> scholarships through my mother’s company, which seemed a lot to me (as a >>> kid from nowhere who knew nothing), and I could earn 3k in a summer doing >>> simple technical work for a land surveyor. Add another 4k/year in loans, >>> and the remainder was a payment my parents could afford. (I remember, >>> though, years of rage by my father toward the end of my high school, when >>> he was terrified it would be an amount he could not afford.) When I read >>> that state schools are routinely costing 65k/year sticker price, and the >>> private non-profits even worse, I don’t know how to get my head around >>> what-all has been built in such a different way that it drives all those >>> costs but seems an inoperable disease, infused throughout the patient. >>> Some is just dollar value-reduction, but when I hear about a whole >>> generation of kids coming out of school with hundreds of k$ loans, it seems >>> completely incomparable to the 12-13k I had, with deferred interest >>> accrual, and which I could pay back out of a graduate TA stipend if I was >>> very frugal, by about the time I got out of grad school. So I didn’t even >>> end up paying an interest overhead on it. >>> >>> I would be dismayed to see the discussion go back into the conventional >>> sound-bites of “too much regulation”, though I believe most university >>> administrators will assert that is a large source. I don’t rule out that >>> regulatory bloat and bad design is a problem, though I am inclined to view >>> it more as I would view software bloat and bad design: we understand what >>> priorities drive it, but that doesn’t mean either that there isn’t a need >>> for some kinds, nor does it imply that under different priorities it could >>> be done better. >>> >>> Would be good to see a nuts-and-bolts comparison of system elements across >>> countries, to see what can be different and how cost and performance are >>> affected by each change. >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 6, 2021, at 4:14 AM, Merle Lefkoff <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Am I the only one who thinks all higher education (before grad school--and >>>> maybe even that too) should be free in a rich democratic (sort of) >>>> society? I'm not sure how to avoid the issue of who gets to go--merit is >>>> the sticky wicket. I also think we need to re-institute the draft. Both >>>> of these initiatives might help to even things out. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 10:38 AM Barry MacKichan >>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>> wrote: >>>> I can endorse both Sandel’s Tyrrany of Merit and Wilkerson’s Caste. Also I >>>> highly recommend Wilkerson’s earlier book, The Warmth of Other Suns about >>>> the great migration in the early 20th century of blacks from the south to >>>> the north and California. An interesting factoid is how important >>>> Lordsburg was to those going to California. >>>> >>>> I haven’t decided what to do with the knowledge I got from these books, >>>> but it is hard to ignore it. >>>> >>>> —Barry >>>> >>>> On 2 Jul 2021, at 21:33, [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> EricS, >>>> >>>> Have you looked at Sandel’s Tyranny of Merit or Wilkerson’s Caste? >>>> >>>> If on thinks hard enough about “merit” it becomes deeply confusing. The >>>> idea of Merit is something that I got on my own, right? So working back >>>> from now to birth whence exactly did I get that merit. Even what I got >>>> from my genes was random right. At what point do get to embrace my merit >>>> as of my own making? So far as me, myself, is concerned, it’s all luck >>>> all the way down. That is what the declaration of independence means when >>>> it says that all [humans] are created equal. >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> Nick Thompson >>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,JGErGkFl3ZxOjIrrCAWIDis3A-4siD3v0vD4Vy5pAIDRs0ZmqGQayWNy46xHObGTWmcFkB_B1O7Xgwn2h6Yw1GzH_9o1oPAfEBH2Zuhg-y-OT5fkrEZbplU,&typo=1> >>>> >>>> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith >>>> Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 7:47 PM >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] of straw and steel >>>> >>>> I think there is some version of this for college tuitions, too, though I >>>> am partly muddy-headed and what I say next will probably fail the logical >>>> map at some points. >>>> >>>> The general idea is some combination of what is in Ginsberg’s book >>>> https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Faculty-Benjamin-Ginsberg/dp/0199975434 >>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Faculty-Benjamin-Ginsberg/dp/0199975434> >>>> but even more so in some article I read in J. Higher Ed or something >>>> (which I have not succeeded in finding and I need now for other projects), >>>> to the effect that: >>>> >>>> 1. There is been a massive cumulative re-allocation of money out of >>>> need-based grants and to merit-based scholarships over the past 40 years >>>> or so. >>>> 2. Sounds good, of course: who could be against rewarding merit. >>>> 3. Except that, de facto, what one largely rewards is preparation, which >>>> is a proxy for parental wealth and membership in one of the culture’s >>>> preferred classes, races, regions, or what-have-you. The part of this >>>> that I am pretty sure is in Ginsberg is also fishing for parental wealth >>>> by building snazzy student centers, on-campus water parks, etc. All that >>>> at enormous cost. The punchline of all this is that WHEN THE BUSINESSMEN >>>> TAKE OVER THE CONCEPT OF THE UNIVERSITY, THE UNIVERSITY BECOMES A >>>> BUSINESS. So, monies spent, such as tuition deferment whether called >>>> grant or scholarships, is in their worldview VENTURE CAPITAL. (That was >>>> what was in the JHE article.) And the return that venture capital is >>>> seeking is parental tuition money. >>>> >>>> So how does this map to Glen’s EricC’s comments: The nominal tuition is >>>> very high (4x what it was in the 1970s, per faculty actually teaching or >>>> doing research). That high tuition isn’t actually cost-received from most >>>> parents, because a significant fraction of it was spent either giving >>>> their kids scholarships, building water parks and student centers, or >>>> whatever. However: if they had given it in need-based grants, they >>>> wouldn’t be getting _anything_ from the parents. So in the businessman’s >>>> world, the investment gathered a maximized monetary profit, which was the >>>> criterion for how to make it. >>>> >>>> As in EricC’s point below, there will be some very rich parents with kids >>>> so lazy or dull that they aren’t well-prepared even with opportunities, so >>>> one can’t give them scholarships, and those will pay the sticker price. >>>> Those are the ones who buy the article at $19, or medical products or >>>> services at list price. High profit but small margin on them. >>>> >>>> >>>> In all the recent and ongoing conversations about tuition jubilee or free >>>> college in the US, I worry that everything real and solvable gets ruled >>>> out before we ever >>>> start, because the above characterization of the real business model isn’t >>>> front and center. Not very different for medical products and services (I >>>> am trying not to use the completely bleached expression “health care”), >>>> though that has been around long enough that a fuller story is not so >>>> uncommon to find. >>>> >>>> It is right that we have mortgaged a whole generation of kids with >>>> unplayable tuition loans, and probably somebody should eat that cost. >>>> Kind of like when German banks bought junk mortgage bonds in the US, they >>>> should actually have been allowed to fail for having not done due >>>> diligence, rather than being bailed out by a government that then had to >>>> get the money to float them by leaning on somebody else (the Irish, the >>>> Italians). That of course doesn’t really work for the reasons correctly >>>> given in Minsky’s Ratchet >>>> https://www.amazon.com/Stabilizing-Unstable-Economy-Hyman-Minsky/dp/0071592997 >>>> >>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Stabilizing-Unstable-Economy-Hyman-Minsky/dp/0071592997> >>>> But the threat of it somehow should be used, while the problem is >>>> building, to keep the banks doing due diligence, and to stop the schools >>>> from hiking tuition and spending to profit on the margin, or medical >>>> products and services skyrocketing as a negotiating point against >>>> insurance companies, etc. The system either gets fixed as a system, or >>>> not at all. >>>> >>>> There must be a really great book somewhere, which gets the data and the >>>> economics better than I can, and also explains this clearly enough that it >>>> can be an everyman’s book. It’s messy and a bait indirect, but it’s not >>>> so hard as to be incomprehensible. Does anybody know such a book? >>>> >>>> Eric >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 3, 2021, at 5:51 AM, Eric Charles <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Something Glen's analysis, there are MANY things in the modern economy >>>> that fit things model, including healthcare. >>>> >>>> The insurance companies demand a steep discount in procedures. >>>> The hospital's have costs to cover. >>>> The only possible consequence is to dramatically increase the sticker >>>> price. There hospital doesn't expect someone to pay that much for a major >>>> procedure, they expect bulk buyers (i.e., insurance companies) to drive >>>> buisness at ther bulk price. (If some random person does pay sticker price >>>> every so often, all the better, but that's not ther primary goal.) >>>> >>>> Mattress companies, clothing stores, etc. that have massive sales 3/4th >>>> of the year are doing the same sort of thing. >>>> >>>> See also my continuous complaints about the "Big Mac Index". Only a small >>>> % of Big Macs in the U.S. are purchased at sicker price. The sticker >>>> price is primarily intended as something to discount off of. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 10:56 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> Maybe. But remember, despite the prescriptive linguists out there: a) >>>> "troll" is not an insult and b) it can be accidental. >>>> >>>> All 3 of Russ' "people with grants", Barry's "rent seeking", and Pieter's >>>> "publishing profits are bad for science" responses are a trawler's >>>> delight! Rather than talk about the Strawman fallacy and it's variations, >>>> we're talking ... [sigh] again ... about capitalism and money. >>>> >>>> Call it naivete if you want. But it was a very effective troll. >>>> >>>> On 6/30/21 7:47 AM, [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > Oh, I see. The point is to make getting the individual item so >>>> > expensive that it just balances driving to the library (or doing ILL) >>>> > with subscribing to the Journal. It's pure manipulation; costs have >>>> > nothing to do with it. >>>> > >>>> > Glen, I think you persistently confuse naivete with trolling. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ☤>$ uǝlƃ >>>> >>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,vtRPbIZSETq04zfwBbWd3LYgUEX1_KVE5DcT3mtOL0SUmtcNgiuRfSEtck56qg7m3SnmFC3lSfs6z_jbuzlSSjGMph1_Fw4WC1fnmMxDpavMvjhh7Dm8&typo=1> >>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,i03FuP6wZL5Em3ggAffAeArKn4MhX9W3s2eW9P5IKi9VS1f17w-ZtKxuIBfNkBp2huMk2ukG57vHFz4NGsZsawZABdXbmbrBusUQoTXf6Q,,&typo=1> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,p5H6LHrQ4hv950XQsirPOHZwVPIquBhDYGnjW3EenApAzKoM10ga1B6cO5g_J7hWvz6wUvPWXFc_H3SeVhXKv1EKxyCb7fD3Wn1r7pUO_tRHvnoJ&typo=1> >>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,omtST340K6Lofu82ivNFSjf5nYrsg8Vw8hnh9qL6rI1qHpTYpat50f3ZSEVm13Uz4S07MdTo9uivJCzwwOux25UFEHN8afH5aK-rqdmd2_TzzkPLqRg,&typo=1> >>>> un/subscribe >>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ejvpu3P2__Ts5Rr739RVpxF3vN-R7967EAtFeYL76vfx9QUdqw4lWXY1mwNOLKTw9b1Nr97hF6naL9Kl9g-YB3XQAufNCt2PWiVq7Syn3--nLrXt5MpTLZ0u&typo=1 >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ejvpu3P2__Ts5Rr739RVpxF3vN-R7967EAtFeYL76vfx9QUdqw4lWXY1mwNOLKTw9b1Nr97hF6naL9Kl9g-YB3XQAufNCt2PWiVq7Syn3--nLrXt5MpTLZ0u&typo=1> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC >>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,ZjZ63z6kUldm120MBYXD8YdOu2LSLbqQeU4EQNtcre3l1ShWItR0mO9KRw_ML9kJNZuEcyNFL22zJWPdpnuCTHJwTmz0JAu2ocnTqeV6ZLNExmqYkKnk8K4Q4CAw&typo=1 >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,ZjZ63z6kUldm120MBYXD8YdOu2LSLbqQeU4EQNtcre3l1ShWItR0mO9KRw_ML9kJNZuEcyNFL22zJWPdpnuCTHJwTmz0JAu2ocnTqeV6ZLNExmqYkKnk8K4Q4CAw&typo=1> >>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>>> >>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,e0PXV7rjN6O_Gjs_FYJzqXXB_DBNn9hrZex5L4-0t38qRlj45dBmOT9znRSPAiHqQbHtJH0LWhXsDcUaHIG1QW-fC85wDQmqDZoOE4dc&typo=1> >>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,3yMxMbA2YKrPcmPPgD1GNyzohqbjqQKMOE6ZmIi8Z98EtxC3WLfIIRhAjf_CTSFzr7dO8KwTadagDy4HY2lyYYwtBxnmYeDNzdw_6U9Juw,,&typo=1> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,zxkXETus_MKJ3rVnMy__Ohh4PR97JsJsUVC4W7rFY2sZJQ_UGkI8QP3YqKKF-OOTQCvys5Gif1EOO5HgFgKfNsabKYZp1ai7vsbbBcDtORU0HUQAT0nbFHg,&typo=1> >>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,ck0SCVhYKlfn-cZRWcpPfY3g8_KwRzOPvaBLCBxSTIAB3Vi3CbiP0MTSD4KUSxs3YCRYsfceRjSL2wDLRxMYpiiONTGUg8z7ubVK_ZuX3ZBydkw,&typo=1> >>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,AyOSMdSuKvV-qoG7_ZmrVZbFCLer1jgiqahZ5_s-f7ng54XXg5fC4ENsWtzVdLoWmLXQ5RG4NQF1sdvXgHIxLnwq7jtVgOTraYAc2n5vxT8f78If&typo=1> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,S9FLMCuaa42C4n8dXFeyGvvOrIZioh_-nmGMv7PdW1cWvY39orRZrCAVyzhtH-YZLxcAlOWFJPngNedptGlf6JL_uO88YdXY2XgUAcZeoAFznuBmam_Vr88x2w,,&typo=1> >>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. >>>> Center for Emergent Diplomacy >>>> emergentdiplomacy.org >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2femergentdiplomacy.org&c=E,1,b2ZWR16aHpBoVoUWii1AQlP3KJWBTrbHlEvfyu5juLgUusefSefp2mwJCFa9_GKhjtgEm7WdtS0H2KrCXvG9m0sgNpaAcjEguRleR37hVS26Ay9tezpw81an&typo=1> >>>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA >>>> >>>> mobile: (303) 859-5609 >>>> skype: merle.lelfkoff2 >>>> twitter: @merle110 >>>> >>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,ZUTc2vp4N95Aoc6a-swpfnAN-2jc4zoSWUQPumSZxZGbOU1fEg5OK7jgBGRX5suO1tNNlUBypOWak3eUlyEz-Vfyhbu_7tYTKWSUEYpNuDv2-Ovr&typo=1> >>>> un/subscribe >>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,P-7hDOvft3YH8MpRSFF_qqejcOFJJspQNdp2NFP_nSz-ZFe1WIqhv6F7lm2QARQQca5JOoVHGq0yq0tKUq9YElNL1gFAgfoMTA0qOPMSBKg_zC2nWtw9&typo=1 >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,P-7hDOvft3YH8MpRSFF_qqejcOFJJspQNdp2NFP_nSz-ZFe1WIqhv6F7lm2QARQQca5JOoVHGq0yq0tKUq9YElNL1gFAgfoMTA0qOPMSBKg_zC2nWtw9&typo=1> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC >>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,zZR_T72mBSjwiPEb7Yr003Dhg-de_5rRfhYyfSEyUc2qy1mOMa9ARQqd93tQ7D1n4EPS6C3IizNwadxBkUIkatZCzt74O9_JJqnxZdvN7XXQhd2lgag0KDMplTM,&typo=1 >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,zZR_T72mBSjwiPEb7Yr003Dhg-de_5rRfhYyfSEyUc2qy1mOMa9ARQqd93tQ7D1n4EPS6C3IizNwadxBkUIkatZCzt74O9_JJqnxZdvN7XXQhd2lgag0KDMplTM,&typo=1> >>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>> >>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,nPaHGbr_Nu5xxq5hk3VIbOfAZSYl_7SwJjiIanm5KC279XVFdCEqFfr5Lr5PjiU1qy7gmluo1v9GJ_7fCsOMfZWQVHGT4YkzBB3pJ3sHyCw,&typo=1> >>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,TsHwaMi0gbBahgtA2XvIk1xSoxRc4jWcGWy3ie-AuK1YuHGLXzUasGX3X9DHQlOI30Zm7SkJfEWLYMfstoEeUm5iC_36pVzdMooeHZh2vG85YX5s-fWAbg,,&typo=1> >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,PDxQ6WowsV6z00xl-T5OMUAm-OOKYVUVI4apduVJlkZzcrzEcPXsgwBHi0E6MX_wDMaYYgmD8vdVCHuMQzxHvM099rjAqN3q5kP7pEKwO5SYVl9q&typo=1> >>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. >>> Center for Emergent Diplomacy >>> emergentdiplomacy.org >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2femergentdiplomacy.org&c=E,1,S81-32Dgjhy9fgsxBHE-7PLI4WBSmUgF5T2vwewp4AjGdGXrrjIW35T8UoRDeO00ecoorpGDiW_8o5_EqAL7T_ovguIfcpPZQLFuWYk_YgC-WVoJNJPY&typo=1> >>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA >>> >>> mobile: (303) 859-5609 >>> skype: merle.lelfkoff2 >>> twitter: @merle110 >>> >>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,0tyzpFThbNs-5n6dhKxcRFkGP5Qh7bsNwsdGw3ZipQjArlUafr7im3xoDIlJ9YSrjFH21MNplsxdWNj5A3NXRQO9_IOXAYOySQyTtcgbQZ-cQ99i&typo=1> >>> un/subscribe >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,K7cAh1DuV4b3vxurW5TtH8x6tICw1GEmEUBFK0r7z_st0sp7UjQCjH7MXm78UbnUedYffyfmBaSBBlpsWTrPETVIW1Mswd48AyFOkAQP9slToQ,,&typo=1 >>> >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,K7cAh1DuV4b3vxurW5TtH8x6tICw1GEmEUBFK0r7z_st0sp7UjQCjH7MXm78UbnUedYffyfmBaSBBlpsWTrPETVIW1Mswd48AyFOkAQP9slToQ,,&typo=1> >>> FRIAM-COMIC >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,7fYbAlnfK9A49jHw1MPvHX03zMCYXgPo-Wpwi7jO-xS1Lz8nYTA7cSPjXD7Y8UkRLhGLszUG9pReSRQmk1cscS2EL81jBRM4Ae-YPuoBJWLYMQ,,&typo=1 >>> >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,7fYbAlnfK9A49jHw1MPvHX03zMCYXgPo-Wpwi7jO-xS1Lz8nYTA7cSPjXD7Y8UkRLhGLszUG9pReSRQmk1cscS2EL81jBRM4Ae-YPuoBJWLYMQ,,&typo=1> >>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >> >> >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,07iB39ZVIKgC_oF4aba977OPAT3A3cF-_Njl2707JQeleVOfSq504CtVXWQJF1d81YQb5vzGmdpAQRzIcC4fDKWfXxBOyFbJ2CzgqUMVjJsHyxoB-NEevLjc&typo=1> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,PHjtg2uGPqFMMk03qyWjDJTEnVglRuOoRvfwKMmI4A177OS23IlB3mqEKoqwPQjoT3-aof5CJ3YSzB2MSMq-BX9WozeXTjwu1-4YRMgEjZo,&typo=1> >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,rAuEWAj3abpxVYv7Aij2BDdGa56xgEothNl5zcb1QL8lfuxLJIy0jsG2MZYw9FccNmlhF_RSZa88Mw1ngTZQVbLAnaQ90iPcQGr_8A2KhfFSrBQLShJZ-KqdyWYX&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,o4c0StIAh1H2uNEOpW27KAL-m1S9HzJI1iusYi2BERk-gG8JqQa_3uxKiRr-mHD0VWJr8oq__fZCdFnEwXjPkjr_8sJARFZT-TjqoqO50Lg,&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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