Dave - I think I have referenced these before but your anecdotes here remind me of Jim Scott's "Against the Grain" and "The Art of Not Being Governed". I wonder if you are familiar with any of his work?
- Steve On 5/7/21 8:02 AM, Prof David West wrote: > Russ, > > Your intuition is partly correct: these societies, for the most part, > were embedded in an extensive cultural web of kinship, norms, rituals, > world-view — like any culture or any people. It appears to us that > their culture was more pervasive, expressed more consistently, and > "enforced" more dramatically, but that is not necessarily true. It > would be the case that those participating in those cultures would not > experience their culture as, in any way, oppressive. In fact, they > would be just as oblivious to their culture as we are to our own. > > None of these cultures were authoritarian in any sense. Leadership was > situational - a "war chief" when threatened, a "forager chief" during > the harvest season. The only permanent leadership position would be > the "shaman" who was, more often than not, female. > > Some of the societies were hierarchical and authoritarian to some > degree, like the Inca. But even they were able to establish and > maintain a vast trading network from southern Chile to Meso-America > and even into what is not the southwest US - all without money. > Quiipu, knotted strings, recorded facts or information, like how much > of what commodity was sent where by whom, but no concept of money or > 'exchange rate'. > > All of these societies were 'brittle' in the sense that none of them > survived encounter with European colonizers. > > If you ever have the inclination, explore water management on Bali. > The indigenous culture allocated water among rice fields based on a > complicated system of myths, rituals, and interpreted omens, a > classical intra-cultural solution, The Dutch came along and > implemented a "scientific" water management system and immediately > lost 50% of rice production and initiated a decade of near starvation > before they gave up and let the priests take over water management again. > > Bali is an excellent example of how an optimum solution to a complex > (in the SFI sense) problem "evolves" over generations of trial and > error with successes preserved via myth and ritual. > > A related curiosity (for extra credit) — in every hunter-gatherer > society of which anthropology is aware, the men hunt and the women > gather. To date, no one has been able to explain why. It cannot be > explained by maternal roles or physical capacity. The range of > theories proposed and debunked over the years is quite large and often > very amusing. > > davew > > > On Thu, May 6, 2021, at 10:20 AM, Russ Abbott wrote: >> Thanks, David. >> >> I have no background in Economic Anthropology and am interested in >> hearing about societies that function effectively without something >> like money. My intuition (perhaps wrong) is that the only ways to >> make that work over extended periods are rigid societal structures >> (enforced, perhaps by powerful, well-established cultural norms) or >> force/power (as in authoritarian societies). In both cases, it seems >> likely (although, again, I could be wrong) that such societies will >> be quite static, inflexible, and brittle in the face of challenges. >> Are the societies you cite different from such paradigms? >> >> >> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:30 AM Prof David West <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> Russ raised the question about alternatives to capitalism. A >> quick perusal of a good Economic Anthropology textbook can >> provide numerous examples. Many of which worked at a scale far >> greater than 150 people. Example: an Aboriginal economic system >> that incorporated multiple tribes in an area from the north coast >> of Australia to the interior of the continent; or, pre-Columbian >> Incas. >> >> These systems were established and maintained by being embedded >> in the overall culture: i.e. because of a vast web of kinship, >> inter-personal, obligation, concrete resources, myth, and ritual. >> In contrast, modern economic systems (capitalism or Marxism, or >> ...) are divorced from "reality" and exist in a world of >> abstractions. >> >> Christopher Alexander illustrated this distinction with regard to >> architecture and the difference between what he called the >> selfconscious and the non-selfconscious process of building. In >> the latter, the knowledge of how to build and maintain a house, >> for example, was embedded in myth and ritual and "common sense >> knowledge." Ideal designs, ones adapted to the context — physical >> and cultural — evolved over time and preserved by being embedded >> in the culture. >> >> Selfconscious design is epitomized by academic schools of >> architecture where abstract concepts of design arise and "good" >> design is judged by conformity to the abstractions and is >> divorced from reality. >> >> Similarly with economic systems. The root of all evil is money >> which is an abstraction. How much "wealth" is grounded in >> abstractions of abstractions of abstractions in capitalist >> economic systems? Marxism might be marginally better than >> capitalism simply because it has never had the time an >> opportunity to develop the same kind of meta-abstraction >> structures that are prevalent in capitalism. >> >> Human evolved a left-brain and it is our ruination. >> >> davew >> >> >> On Thu, May 6, 2021, at 5:21 AM, David Eric Smith wrote: >>> Hi Pieter, >>> >>> Not that it matters (to anything), but No, zero support for >>> Chomsky from me. >>> >>> He is the archetype of a bully and a demagogue. It was his MO >>> in linguistics his entire career, a field that was susceptible >>> to that sort of thing, and to which he has done great harm. >>> It’s a shame, too, because as you say, he is smart, and some of >>> his early ideas were interesting and insightful. >>> >>> That is not an ad hominem to the side, it is a propos de his >>> political writing. I do think some of his criticisms of the >>> predatoriness of the American system are correct, and they >>> benefit from his intelligence and energy. But I think your >>> criticism that all he does is stand in judgment from the >>> sidelines and not bear human responsibility for what happens >>> when you get things wrong is just the right one. >>> >>> Have you noticed that there are some people who seem deeply >>> grounded in a concern for others’ wellbeing, and seem to work >>> tirelessly to help? I have the impression that, for instance, >>> Karen Bass (a US congresswoman who was for a time considered for >>> Vice President) is such a person. The best kind of people who >>> rise within civil rights movements and causes. I am struck by >>> how often they have no interest in blaming and judging; it is a >>> distraction from the work they are trying to do. >>> >>> On the other side, there are people who choose causes that may >>> have righteous elements, but seem to choose them for the >>> reinforcement of identity it gives them to stand in condemning >>> judgment on others. That is all I can see in Chomsky. It >>> doesn’t mean everything he says is wrong, and criticisms have a >>> place. But a premise that there is any kind of anarchism that >>> doesn’t instantly get taken over by gangs seems way too >>> anti-empirical to be claimed as a “smart” position. >>> >>> But fair enough to argue the claims, >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>> >>>> On May 6, 2021, at 4:28 PM, Pieter Steenekamp >>>> <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a little book On Anarchism by Noam Chomsky. >>>> >>>> Chomsky is IMO a very smart person and it's maybe worthwhile to >>>> pay attention to his ideas? >>>> >>>> Although I don't want to reject his ideas, my mind is open, I'm >>>> not convinced it will work out as intended. The problem is he >>>> offers anarchism as an idea without specifics of how to >>>> implement it and how the valid concerns about it can be addressed. >>>> >>>> At least, Chomsky's abhorrence of capitalism will maybe find >>>> fertile ground among some members of this group? >>>> >>>> On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 08:34, Russ Abbott <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Eric, You explained many of the problems in much more depth >>>> and detail than I did. Well done. Thanks. >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 5, 2021, 4:46 PM David Eric Smith >>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, agreed, Russ, with amendments. >>>> >>>> I wrote some long awful thing on this yesterday and had >>>> the good manners to delete without sending. >>>> >>>> I think capitalism isn’t even about money; there are >>>> two issues: capitalist property rights and monetary or >>>> financial layers in the economy. >>>> >>>> I know Glen doesn’t like the terms “means of >>>> production”, but we can capture a big subset with an >>>> everyday term like “tools”. Tools are durable things, >>>> built at cost with the intent that they can be >>>> repeatedly used. They are not a monetary store of >>>> value, but they are, in other material senses, a store >>>> of transformational power over things one wants to >>>> transform. >>>> >>>> But as soon as there is a tool, there is a decision >>>> problem over how it can be used and by whom. I think >>>> “ownership rights” is the name we give to any solution >>>> to (meaning, “commitment to some protocol for”) that >>>> problem. With ownership then comes at least an >>>> incentive, and in many real, limited-information >>>> settings, a realized ability, for the de facto owner of >>>> a tool to guide where the productive output using the >>>> tool goes. It’s kind of the default basic-layer >>>> dynamic that follows from tool creation and tool >>>> ownership. We can understand how tricky that >>>> instability can be to manage from study of these >>>> intricate and fancy mechanisms in hunter-gatherer >>>> societies to blunt the concentration of power >>>> (arrow-sharing that guides who gets meat; the kind of >>>> thing Sam Bowles studies). Ownership provides a >>>> channel for itself to concentrate, and to concentrate >>>> other things (obliquely, referring to “wealth” by >>>> whatever measure). That seems to me the essence of the >>>> capitalist problem, which then takes various forms >>>> depending on social institutional choices. >>>> >>>> It seems to me that we don’t want to give up tools, so >>>> we can’t give up the problem of committing to some >>>> solution for ownership, and with that, we have to face >>>> up to the complex problem of regulating against the >>>> tendency of ownership to concentrate its de facto power >>>> by redirecting the proceeds of things produced. >>>> >>>> This is why I don’t buy, as an empirical matter, >>>> Pieter’s optimism about things’ becoming too cheap to >>>> meter. In some ways, and in projections to some >>>> dimensions, yes, that is a fair description. Computer >>>> operating systems used to be pay-per-version, now many >>>> are free. Communication used to be charge-per-use, now >>>> much of it is paid for by advertising (“free” only in >>>> an extreme distortion of what dimensions carry value, >>>> but nonetheless one that has taken most people some >>>> years to become aware of). But the very way the rise >>>> of the concentration of wealth in the Tech sector >>>> before, and even more grotesquely so during the >>>> pandemic, is raising all the old arguments about the >>>> capitalist class, seems to me to show even in quite >>>> abstract domains of information and coordination >>>> services, that tool ownership has default instabilities >>>> that always act unless we can find effective regulatory >>>> strategies to blunt them. >>>> >>>> In this sense I think Glen does make the most important >>>> point, which is that if there is a strong argument >>>> about UBI, its context is overwhelmingly about the >>>> problem that innovations in absolute output seem always >>>> coupled to concentrations of inequality. Relative to >>>> that, almost everything Shapiro said in that piece was >>>> tropes that, at 15 places in the short talk, gave me an >>>> internal impulse to go cite the person who shows they >>>> are tropes by providing the good-faith and well >>>> thought-out counterargument. It is a bit sad that Yang >>>> doesn’t feel able (and maybe isn’t able) to take that >>>> bull by the horns and say that this is where the UBI >>>> question lives. >>>> >>>> >>>> To me, money is a somewhat separate question: a >>>> mechanism for the distribution of permissions, >>>> communication, authority, etc., which makes certain >>>> coordination problems tractable that otherwise wouldn’t >>>> be. I don’t think we want to give up the ability to >>>> use that, and even if some did, so many others don’t >>>> that there probably is no path for society that keeps >>>> it gone. But, as many in the thread have so well said >>>> already, money is a terrible dimension-reducer, and the >>>> problems of “store of transformation power” that come >>>> with tool ownership, then take on new versions as >>>> “store of value” which is a kind of exchangeable access >>>> to ownership rights over everything. But again, if we >>>> either can’t or (I will accept the position of) don’t >>>> want to give up what it allows us to do, we again face >>>> the complexity and difficulty of inventing or evolving >>>> (in whatever combinations) regulatory strategies to try >>>> to limits its default instabilities. >>>> >>>> Anyway, to say I agree with Russ’s motivation to push >>>> this point. >>>> >>>> Eric >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 6, 2021, at 8:15 AM, Russ Abbott >>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Earlier, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ said: If we're stuck with >>>>> capitalism, then I'm for UBI. If we can get out from >>>>> under capitalism, then I'm not. Nick added: it is the >>>>> "triumph" of capitalism to reduce all relationships to >>>>> money. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder if this is not assuming that there is an >>>>> alternative to what you are calling >>>>> /capitalism/. As uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ points out, co-ops can work >>>>> on relatively small scales, but if we are going to >>>>> live in groups of larger than ~150 people, how are you >>>>> imagining that we will arrange interactions without >>>>> something like money? Even on small scales, how will a >>>>> collective without money organize itself in anything >>>>> other than a very static structure? And on larger >>>>> scales, what is the organizing principle other than >>>>> power? It's not clear to me how an alternative >>>>> that uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ is supposing possible will actually >>>>> work. uǝlƃ ↙↙↙, would you mind elaborating what you >>>>> have in mind? >>>>> >>>>> -- Russ Abbott >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:17 PM jon zingale >>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Yeah, I think it is safe to say that "huge costs" >>>>> are a sign of progress in >>>>> the same sense that smoke is a sign of fire. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>>>> >>>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . >>>>> .-. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 >>>>> bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,RK4SHKG4UwSR2eVfEmLPEpQR-OMf7dd-BiY5K9UxSfhxcR1LmMt0ta1C_RYF2i8GsNwbem9M1V6uuuT9pS5WENqQxKV8dNrCjFOaTUwQ&typo=1> >>>>> un/subscribe >>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,zWSbFgBSMywQBhEiPeYpZMK0-NSq7QU07S8ElQOja-b4WQIuI9z0sU3xgOp3Dnwql93s6TY4y2F5DfrGu6FcJGy42dAiGkjqPslUQXENzjFvsplH&typo=1> >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,o7oJnliH8UY66S_VIxX5a28UvlWetoD_I8KrLoutZukz2P5VR36VFwKkDfHj27Rj_NiaxL0j2ETtGNFu0dGtQCCvaNOXI9WLEp2lTNQlyMQ7YbhGZOxvSA,,&typo=1> >>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>>>> >>>>> - 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