Hi Nick, Thanks for correcting me, what I meant above was a species with intelligent members.
On Sat, 1 May 2021 at 18:43, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi, All, > > > > With out appearing too persnickety, could I ask that we keep a distinction > in mind in this discussion: between an intelligent species and a species > with intelligent members. A species is intelligent to the degree that it > seeks out points in adaptation space where it is continued. It’s easy to > declare a species as intelligent because we know what it is maximizing. > (Well, relatively easy: what do we say when a species divides into two: > that it has failed or succeeded?) Working out whether an individual is > intelligent is more tricky until we have decided what “should” be maximized > by an individual. Don’t tell me survival, because NO individuals survive. > Don’t tell me reproduction, because no individual diploid organism > reproduces. Don’t tell me “genes”, because genes are not like so many cold > coins that can be hoarded in a dragon’s cave. The whole area of > intelligence in evolution is a social Darwinist, class-ridden, cesspool of > confusion and I urge you to all think carefully before you flush yourselves > down this particular toilet. > > > > But I love you all! > > > > *Nick Dixit* > > > > Nick Thompson > > [email protected] > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp > *Sent:* Saturday, May 1, 2021 1:14 AM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] something serious from something silly > > > > My question is what is an intelligent species? > > Here on earth we observe that there are two mechanisms to develop > technology: evolution and cognition. If we define an intelligent species as > one that uses cognition to develop technology, then neither octopi nor any > other species on earth are intelligent, because we don't observe them using > cognition to develop technology. Even if we decode hidden structure in > octopi's communication and even if they communicate deep emotional issues > very eloquently, according to this definition they would not be an > intelligent species. > > But, of course an intelligent species could be defined differently. For > example, natural selection could evolve a species with hidden order or > structure in their communication and they could, for argument's sake, > eloquently communicate their emotions via color. A species having a deep > emotional discussion using this type of communication, even without the > ability to use cognition to develop technology could be defined as an > intelligent species. Why not? Let's do a thought experiment where octopi > have this and robots are doing the mundane stuff like providing food and > shelter and health care and humans have deep emotional discussions with > octopi, it would be useful to consider octopi as an intelligent species. > > > > On Sat, 1 May 2021 at 05:18, Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: > > Do chameleons see what's under their tails? > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:12 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > > Octopus ground mimicry is the thing I cannot understand. How do you copy > what you are not looking at? > > n > > Nick Thompson > [email protected] > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Prof David West > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 8:57 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [FRIAM] something serious from something silly > > A discussion of UFOs occupied some time in FRIAM today, including the > observation that despite looking for "intelligent signals" ala SETI have > failed. > > Made me think of octopi (& other cephalopods) that communicate with > brilliant displays of rapidly changing color. We think that these displays > are more than reactive, that they are "intelligent communication." Mostly, > it seems to me, we infer this because we have a lot of context, including > interacting octopi, but if all we had was the "signal" absent the context, > would we recognize it as "intelligent?" > > I am not phrasing the question very well, but if we had nothing except a > 5-minute video of an octopus' surface changing color, would we be able to > detect a hidden order or structure that would allow a reasonable > determination that it originated from an intelligent species? > > davew > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
