Dave, hi,
Your description is very close to the original description by Conrad Waddington
for the process he terms “canalization”.
I haven’t read a ton of this stuff, but I believe the first paper (also about
birds, but this time ostriches), was:
author = "Waddington, C.~H.",
title = "Canalization of development and the inheritance of
acquired characters",
journal = "Nature",
volume = "150",
pages = "563--565",
year = "1942"
I expect, however, that Nick and EricC read all this stuff in the crib, because
they have read and written a lot on evolution. But in any case, it gives a
concrete point of departure.
Eric
> On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:52 PM, Prof David West <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Silly question / story – about doves not chickens.
>
> I gave the dove, like all my creatures, a command to be fruitful and
> multiply. But I know my dove well, and both the he and she of dovedom tend to
> be a bit forgetful, even careless. It seemed to me that they would need some
> kind of reminder to sit on any eggs they produce but they seldom had access
> to an alarm clock or appointment book. Aha, said I, realizing a cute trick. A
> simple tweak of the hormonal system, a system that already has timing
> elements, will generate an itchy breast that can be soothed by sitting on the
> eggs. Of course, I will need to make sure an egg is sat upon and not a smooth
> river rock, and I want the itch to recede after an appropriate time interval,
> so I will have the dove secrete a substance that will bond with an element of
> the chemical structure on an egg shell and that reaction will require the
> necessary egg-sitting interval to complete and sooth the dove-breast until
> the hormonal system next secretes the substance.
>
> One process, not two that are somehow related "epiphemomon-ologically." If
> this is my theory, might I, if I were an ethologist, construct an experiment
> to confirm/deny it?
>
> I think this kind of approach to constructing/confirming a theory would end
> up making Occam happier than the approach discussed on the list and at last
> Friday's vFRIAM.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, at 12:10 PM, [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
>> Well, yes. But is that necessary to expose the fundamental problem? (Not
>> a rhetorical question, I promise.) In my presentation of the problem I have
>> tried to reduce it to “one level”, I.e, one color of spheres co=related to
>> one size. Put in red (large) and yellow (small) spheres into the top and
>> get small yellow spheres out the bottom. That there are four
>> levels/sizes/colors is just gravy, isn’t it? Eye candy?
>>
>> Nick
>> Nicholas Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>> Clark University
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,sAJ5X6gwlypmzWnIFta7lfEOwtl84TnaopXd0_ZM2xzyUFZGIj4Elm0XsO-Dpg4SYprJciL4MPtw0Fy2CFEtyzWcr9j6iS_l77IhXVe7SIK83DmAGOt-Rzztpi2y&typo=1>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 11:14 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
>>
>>
>> So, your homework is to give a conditional independence relationship that
>> describes the reality. Maybe level is the third variable.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:58 AM <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> No. Sorry. The shape/size thing is a confusion that got introduced early in
>> the discussion because Jon’s toy was different from Sober’s Toy. Jon’s toy
>> sorted for shape; Sober’s for size. So, forget shape. We are just talking
>> about size and color. (See attached illustration).
>>
>>
>> Now, imagine that we put a shroud around the toy so we cannot see into it.
>> We put spheres, mixed by size and color into the top and shake it. (Remember
>> that yellow balls are the smallest, green balls the next size up, etc.) Lo
>> and behold, all the small yellow balls end up at the bottom. In the
>> shrouded version, nothing tells us whether the machine is sorting for size
>> and giving us color or sorting for color and giving us size, right? It’s
>> the golden goose problem. Is the goose good at finding flecks of gold in
>> the barnyard or does the goose contain a huge store of gold inside her.
>> Statistically, it doesn’t make any difference, but if you are thinking of
>> killing the goose for the gold, you better the hell know which kind of goose
>> you got.
>>
>> Nick
>> Nicholas Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>> Clark University
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,za-PiqhLDdWulm_KaaTclQSqvfoYqgAFzubAS8T1j2E_OaU8ORA7ZMzqkDP3A-6q_j0DJzsev8xq7nl0zzZE_CHrywHKoaIEkoRHivOGfsMj&typo=1>
>>
>>
>> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 10:28 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
>>
>>
>> What it sounds like you're saying is color is independent of shape given
>> size?
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 9:56 AM <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> Frank
>>
>> Doesn’t covariance beg the question of causality? Put another way,
>> mathematics doesn’t care how the small spheres come to be yellow. Imagine
>> an opaque “epiphenomenator” so far as the math is concerned it could as well
>> be true that smallness is getting a free ride on yellowness as that
>> yellowness is getting a free ride on smallness.
>>
>> Thanks, again, for helping me think about this.
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>> Clark University
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,xnOrv74Lzh-6J1q59hDzFa1EIwdGF5fO_ELcc5Ar9d42v8O0tq1NwOXTkLtqxpvjQJLRb2_X9hxi8ynmgrsnl8FNdCkAX-Z7mxfXuf-4ElUONIXQPCat&typo=1>
>>
>>
>> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
>> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:51 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
>>
>>
>> Good choice. Our statistical causal reasoning algorithms were based on
>> conditional independence relations (is A independent of B given C) which are
>> tested using covariance statistics.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, N
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 11:32 PM David Eric Smith <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> “Covariance” is the term I see universally used in population genetics.
>>
>> If one is disappointed at merely using the mathematical label for the only
>> relation that ever appears in the mathematics, then the question arises what
>> else one wants from a categorization, if the categorization will always be
>> quarantined outside the math that carries the consequences.
>>
>> We had this discussion for “interpretations of quantum mechanics”, and
>> because Jon had some reasonable things to say about what one does want from
>> such an interpretation, it seems appropriate to ask whether similar
>> contributions should be sought here.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>> On Aug 16, 2020, at 2:23 PM, <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>> Frank,
>>
>> Well, yes, precisely. And what would you call that relation? It’s a very
>> common relation, but I don’t seem to have a very good name for it.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>> Clark University
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,-XvvP7UQfTHLobknPzMP5r8sAfPOcnSiIH41MKyXIRnSha8tQabypuYpGtyJyuUrQ43mq5ul35krcYjQf9OGxU-TIT0otdUjvcSPqcuYnNFluqTJVHRoEp64TEFQ&typo=1>
>>
>>
>> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
>> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 10:29 PM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
>>
>>
>> Nick,
>>
>> The toy seems to me to illustrate that one variable can be causally related
>> to another (selected) and correlated to a third which is not causally
>> connected to the third.
>>
>> Or something like that. Am I close?
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:04 PM <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> Hi, Eric,
>>
>> Nobody should treat my thoughts concerning epiphenomena, intension,
>> extension, etc. as anything more than vaguely informed explorations. But
>> you know that. I have struggled for years to understand what my colleagues
>> mean by these terms and they constantly necker-cube for me, so to the extent
>> that I cannot usually be relied to know what I am talking about, this is a
>> particularly dangerous area for me. In particular, I don’t think Sober uses
>> the term, “epiphenomenon”, in his book, so I would not like to have my
>> understanding of the term scraped off on him. Calling it the device (see
>> attachment) the Sober Epiphenomenator is probably all on me.
>>
>> My colleagues have warned me away from poking at this dungheap, but I am
>> fascinated by it. It just seems to me that underlying all this mess is a
>> pretty simple idea, and I would like to clear it up, if only for myself.
>> And it further seems to me that the Sober device, in its childlike simplity,
>> might be a good place to start.
>>
>> I look forward to considering your economic example to see if it fits the
>> template, if there is a template.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>> Clark University
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,PonvMB4fyRuVaaC2-W3oNqsyfAjTDa4rmfxhitGmQxJ-XHhde5J0t-oy1qTjj4FzZ-MNWu6TyVI6VMj6oS1bhnLzpPm5qT7evjTEDNDqYStS6PyAt-Qjm7s-WQ,,&typo=1>
>>
>>
>> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
>> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 9:30 PM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
>>
>>
>> It is so interesting that, just as in the earlier discussions of emergence
>> and probably others, Nick uses the word “epiphenomenal” in ways it would
>> never occur to me to use it, and as far as I can tell quite exclusive of the
>> only way it did ever occur to me to use it. I guess DS Wilson (or Elliot
>> Sober?) uses it the same way as Nick is using it, and I never looked up what
>> was the canonical usage.
>>
>> But anyway…
>>
>> I had always used the term in reference to neoclassical economics (NE) and
>> its treatment of preferences and institutions. I had always said that NE
>> treated institutions as epiphenomena of preferences. By which I mean the
>> following:
>> 1. Even economists can’t simply pretend institutions don’t exist.
>> 2. However, Arrow, Debreu, and McKenzie proved lovely existence theorems for
>> optimal allocations from the competition of individual preferences, and the
>> economists really really insist on remaining in the Garden of Eden of those
>> existence proofs.
>>
>> What to do?
>>
>> 3. Acknowledge that all these names and descriptions of institutions do
>> really point at things-in-the-world, but declare that economically those
>> things don’t actually do any work or mean anything. They are like
>> constellations in the sky; patterns that can be seen from certain angles, as
>> one looks at the _actual_ basis for economic behavior, which is individual
>> preferences.
>>
>> That was what I had thought was captured in the characterization
>> “epiphenomenal”. But clearly I am using it as something of a gesture-word,
>> and not something for which I am building a strict formal logic. It is more
>> an attempt to explain the patterns of choices and work by a group of people,
>> and to impute a state of mind to them to explain those choices.
>>
>> The alternative to institutions as “epiphenomena” of preferences would be
>> institutions that not only exist as patterns to be named, but as real things
>> in the world that do essential work in determining what happens. They
>> govern what actions are available to us, what knowledge we have to act on,
>> what power or authority or roles, and on and on. They define signaling
>> systems (monetary units and physical monies, ownership claims, etc.) and
>> provide the channels on which the signals are transmitted (contract law,
>> taxation, etc.), and thus are the framework to operationally coordinate
>> pretty-much everything we think of as constituting economic life. Without
>> them we would not have raw, competing complete preferences; we would largely
>> cease to exist as economic agents.
>>
>> The usage isn’t entirely unlike Nick’s semiotic/intensional-extensional
>> contrasts, but it seems to differ in the sense that, when I say the NE guys
>> treat institutions as epiphenomena of preferences, the work that they want
>> done would be the same whether done by preferences or by institutions. So
>> if they were to think of institutions as mattering, those would be
>> contributing part of the mechanics of choice then not carried by
>> preferences, whereas if they are epiphenomena they are like a kind of
>> transparent window that preferences can be seen through, while the
>> preferences carry all the weight. Kind of like the bulk magnetization in a
>> ferromagnet is not a “different” thing that “supervenes” on all the
>> microscopic magnetic moments and forces them into coordination: rather the
>> bulk magnetization is nothing more than a summary statistic for the
>> microscopic magnetizations, and really and truly _nothing_ more or less than
>> the aggregate of them, and hence an epiphenomenon of
>> them-all-taken-together. In contrast, all of Nick’s epiphenomena are actual,
>> independent, real properties, and the discussion then branches off in a
>> different direction of who or what does or doesn’t consider them
>> consequential. That to me seems more of a contrast of salient vs. ancillary
>> actual properties, rather than fundamental versus epi or purely apparitional
>> phenomena.
>>
>> But who knows. I guess it depends on what problem you want to solve, what
>> count as useful categorizations.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 16, 2020, at 6:40 AM, <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>> The quote in the subject line was (is?) a slogan that Massachusetts egg
>> farmers offered in Massachusetts shoppers trying to get them to buy their
>> eggs. It came with a ditty which, if you call me up, I will happily sing for
>> you. The back story is that the factory egg producers in neighboring NY
>> used chickens that produced white eggs. Like as not, if you were eating a
>> white egg in MA you were eating an egg that had been shipped in from NY,
>> hence longer in transit. So, if the campaign were successful, shoppers
>> would seek out brown eggs because of their color. Brownness in eggs would
>> be their cue for purchase. If the campaign worked, the freshness would
>> become epiphenonmenal with respect to their selection criteria. From the
>> point of view of Massachusetts egg-producers, the brownness of the eggs was
>> epiphenomenal. All they cared about is whether the eggs sold in MA were
>> from MA This would of course break down if NY farmers started using chickens
>> that laid brown eggs or Massachusetts farmers started storing eggs before
>> shipping them.
>>
>> At Friday’s meeting, my mentors urged me to get off the “epiphenomenon”
>> kick. I suppose I could instead use the language of semeiotics. [Pause for
>> moaning in the distance.] In this case we could say that the producers were
>> trying to make brownness a sign of value in eggs. This works for two quite
>> distinct reasons: it works for the consumer because the brown is a sign of
>> local and local is a sign of fresh; it works for the producers because brown
>> is a sign of eggs that come from their farms.
>>
>> Instead of semiotic language, we could use the language of intension and
>> extension. [More anguished groans] The marketing campaign works because
>> although the intensions of the choices of the two agents are different,
>> these intensions are both part of the extension of brown eggs in
>> Massachusetts.
>>
>> Note also that the slogan is an example of powers and perils of abduction.
>> The sloganeer first abduces that brown eggs are local and from that category
>> (local eggs) deduces that the eggs are fresh. The two steps in the
>> abduction/deduction process are
>>
>> These eggs are brown; local eggs are brown; these eggs are local;
>> Local eggs are fresh; these [brown] eggs are local; these [brown] eggs are
>> fresh.
>>
>> The point (to me) is that there is a very simple thread underlying all of
>> these ways of talking about natural selection phenomena. Could all this
>> baroque verbiage be reduced to a simple formula?
>>
>> Years ago I wrote a paper
>> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239787151_A_system_for_describing_bird_song_units>
>> that reduced the terminology of bird song down to three operations and 5
>> levels of organization. In short, the paper showed that while scientists
>> had been using several dozen terms, they had, along, only been talking about
>> three different sorts of thing. That is the sort of reduction I would like
>> to do on all this talk of epiphenomena, intension, extension, function,
>> purpose, cue, side-effect, spandrel, exaptation, blah, blah-blah, and
>> blah-blah-blah.
>>
>> Thanks for allowing me to think in your space and on your time.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>> Clark University
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,TnTbxPkRvg0BPvNaE6Fq1T3uJwmDF09KgnNO50mP_S__KFuXCTGN04T7rnC9KsuFHuhDJNjMv8TyGxf7tFaR6WbcG2IAvfnoPeclnYDb2y4WqcEzsdraQVOESm4,&typo=1>
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