I find this conversation depressing. Carry on. ----------------------------------- Frank Wimberly
My memoir: https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly My scientific publications: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 Phone (505) 670-9918 On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 11:23 AM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote: > Perforce, I am experiencing confusion. > > Sensations are impinging on the organism, the organism "organizes and > interprets" them and, in some mysterious way presents a "coherent > formulation" of them to a specialized aspect of the organism which, in > turn, meta-interprets them as "an experience." > > Although the "experience" is in the foreground it is not dissociated from > the "coherent formulation" which is context for the "experience;" nor is > "experience" apart from the raw sensations which are context for the > "coherent formulation." Indeed all is a whole. > > For whatever reason, the organism has learned to "notice" consistencies, > i.e. approximations of the "same whole" that "recur" with some regularity. > (Notice the need to invent linear time here, without any justification > except that in the step following we come to believe in time as a shared > experience.) > > Somewhere in the mists of prehistory another aspect of the organism "puts > words" to the "experience" allowing multiple organisms to exchange words > and discourse at great length as to whether or not they are sharing the > same "experiences" and, if so, does such collective experiencing suggest a > "provisional shared interpretation?" > > Enter the skeptic. > > The first thing I doubt is that word "provisional." I have been observing > for a long time and I do not believe you are truly sincere about it - you > use the verb "to be" far too frequently and with too much conviction to > believe you. You are also way to comfortable equating the improbable with > the impossible. > > The next thing I doubt are your words. There is a whole treatise here, but > I will simply point to Gladstone's essay on "color in the age of Homer" and > numerous writings on the "truth" behind the fallacy of Sapir--Whorfism. > > Then I doubt the "coherent formulation" noting that the construction of > same is highly idiosyncratic and its "consistency" an artifact of laziness > - "just send the old formulation along instead of making the effort to > construct a new one from the data of the instant." > > Then I doubt the sensations, especially their origin apart from the > sensory element of the organism that claimed to have been impinged. > > In parallel, of course, I have doubted the implicit "I" that is > inescapable when "words" come into the picture. > > Ultimately I doubt whether the totality of the "provisionally shared > interpretations" (including of course all of science) can definitively be > differentiated from the result of God on an eternal (instead of 15 minute) > DMT trip. > > The skeptic merely doubts. The mystic claims that EXPERIENCE is a > possibility - unmediated by "I" or sensation, or coherent formulations or > words or provisional shared interpretations. Is this the "hope" being > "mocked?" > > davew > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, at 4:21 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > > Dave, > > > > "All is illusion" is exactly the kind of partial draught that I am > > complaining about. It clings to the very hope it mocks. If skepticism > > is what you desire, then there is no warrant to speak of anything > > beyond experience, and experience is "of" nothing except other > > experiences. So the only question becomes, To what extent is > > experience organized. Or is experience merely random. If by "all is > > illusion" you mean there are no consistencies in experience, then, of > > course, you are welcome to that view, in the same way you are welcome > > to the view that all the molecules in the lovely Dutch beer sitting in > > front of you will instantaneously leap out of the glass, roll across > > the table, and jump into your mouth without any assistance from your > > hands. But I wouldn't bet on it. If I wanted some of that beer, I > > would reach for it. > > > > > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David > West > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 2:18 AM > > To: friam@redfish.com > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] All hail confirmation bias! > > > > Nick stated: > > > > "I deplore a skepticism that drinks only 9/10ths of the potent, and > > then puts the glass down, burps, and walks away with a smug look on its > > face." > > > > Excepting the mystic who recognizes that "ALL is illusion," has anyone > > drunk the full potent? > > > > davew > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 28, 2019, at 9:23 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > > > While we're getting rid of concepts, let's just get rid of this > > > foolish, unsubstantiated concept, "the world." What sort of heuristic > > > is THAT? > > > > > > N > > > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A > > > Smith > > > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 11:41 AM > > > To: friam@redfish.com > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] All hail confirmation bias! > > > > > > I KNEW that confirmation bias was a problem and NOW this confirms it! > > > > > > I TOLEYA! > > > > > > On 4/24/19 5:25 PM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote: > > > > Our World Isn't Organized into Levels > > > > https://philpapers.org/rec/POTOWI?ref=mail > > > > > > > >> In my view, our adherence to the levels concept in the face of the > > > >> systematic problems plaguing it amounts to a failure to recognize > > > >> structure we’re imposing on the world, to instead mistake this as > > > >> structure we are reading off the world. Attachment to the concept > > > >> of levels of organization has, I think, contributed to > > > >> underestimation of the complexity and variability of our world, > > > >> including the significance of causal interaction across scales. > > > >> This has also inhibited our ability to see limitations to our > > > >> heuristic and to imagine other contrasting heuristics, heuristics > > > >> that may bear more in common with what our world turns out to > > > >> actually be like. Let’s at least entertain the possibility that the > invocation of levels can mislead scientific and philosophical > investigations more than it informs them. I suggest that the onus is on > advocates of levels of organization to demonstrate the well-foundedness and > usefulness of this concept. > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > > > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > > > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
