Russ,
I am just catching up on this but first the analogy to gas distribution is not accurate, or at least I question it from my work in solid state diffusion i.e alloys etc. There is a dynamic that ultimate results in lower energy states Interacting atoms seem to adopt a kind of neighborliness. They try and balance their energy state to accommodate the neighbor, of course this is not perfect. Since the energy levels are structurally different. For mixtures of similar species my impression is that they just wander about randomly trying to avoid getting excited. This tendency to go low results in the diffused state. Or crystalline system??? Emergence again Perhaps?? Now I can see diffusion as an emergent behavior directly resulting from atoms preferring lower excitement states. But the connection to gravity eludes me. AS it seems to be counter entropic. Just from a quick reading I was surprised how I thought diffusion was being misunderstood and yet now I am thinking that diffusion may be more likely emergent than the previous link to gravity. How curious. When I was working on the diffusion issue I adopted an approach where dissimilar species were forced to be neighbours and I ran loops for each species trying to adapt to the other and see if there was a stable point between them when they were "Happy" with eachother. I was in hind sight trying to treat each atom as an autonomous agent In a sense without ever having heard the concept. My assumption was that they were only able to adjust electrons but that was very simplistic. The atomic diameter of an atom can change radically depending on how much energy is involved in the electron distributing pattern. Roughly more electrons, smaller diameter and higher energy states. Dumping photons lowers the energy state. Too bad I wrote this stuff so long ago. I almost forgot that in the misty past. So in brief the atoms are struggling to accommodate eachother and constantly altering their diameter and that seems to push them away from eachother hence the emergence of diffusion. Turns out that there are other mechanics involved. But curious how Emergence shows up in unexpected places. I will read the mail and try and figure out a more refined response. Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology) 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA R2J 3R2 (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax <mailto:vbur...@shaw.ca> vbur...@shaw.ca -----Original Message----- From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott Sent: July 13, 2010 1:01 PM To: nickthomp...@earthlink.net; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Gravity as an emergent phenomenon I always find myself confused about how to think about entropy. The article says that gravity is an entropic force. I understand that to mean that it not reducible to lower level forces but to be reducible (if that term applies) to statistical thermodynamics. Just as there are a lot more ways that a gas can be more or less uniformly distributed in a closed area than the ways it could be bunched up in a corner -- and hence we tend to find it more or less uniformly distributed -- gravity according to this analysis is like the universe in a more uniformly distributed state rather than a more unusual state. There is no force that causes it. It is a statistical phenomenon. In other words, gravitational attraction is like whatever it is that pushes a gas bunched up in a corner to become more uniformly distributed. But the whatever-it-is in the case of a gas is nothing but statistical phenomena. There are no forces involved even though from a naive point of view it may appear that there is a force that is pushing the gas to be spread out. -- Russ On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Nicholas Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: Pamela, I got all ready to be huffy about the article, but then found it really interesting. At risk of going all professorial on you, I want to examine your expression, "no more than a". The most important phenomena that we experience are all emergents. If you hit me with a rock, the hardness and edginess of the rock that collapses my skull, are all emergents. So, then what the dickens is meant by "no more than"? I think it means SOMETHING and would like to explore it further with you (and others on the list.) "Reduction" means to some to account for a phenomenon n terms of events or objects that are smaller than the phenomenon itself. Reduction is always to break a process or an object into its parts. To others, "reduction" means to explain a phenomenon by reference to a more familiar or well understood phenomenon. This latter understanding of reduction opens the possibility for a reduction to refer to a process that is larger or more inclusive than the process it reduces, what I would call an up-reduction, to distinguish it from the "breaking-into-parts" sort of reduction. It sounds to me that the account of gravity being offered in this article is a case of up reduction in that sense. I hope others will read the article and comment, because i wasnt sure I understood it. All the best, Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] > [Original Message] > From: Pamela McCorduck <pam...@well.com> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > Date: 7/13/2010 12:39:41 PM > Subject: [FRIAM] Gravity as an emergent phenomenon > > Great food for thought. Gravity might be no more than an emergent phenomenon: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13gravity.html?_r=1 <http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/science/13gravity.html?_r=1&partner=rss&e m%0Ac=rss> &partner=rss&em c=rss > > > > > > "God keep me from ever completing anything. This whole book is but a draft--nay, but the draft of a draft. Oh, Time, Strength, Cash, and Patience!" > > Melville, "Moby Dick" > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
