I would suggest that what is at stake is efficiency. Those who can do civilization efficiently can also do brutality efficiently. Those who do civilization grandly, are in a position to brutality grandly. The notion that civilization and brutality are mutually exclusive is clearly proved wrong by history. Eric
On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 05:48 PM, "Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky" <[email protected]> wrote: > Your comments struck me as quite profound, > >The brutality seen in these civilizations is a manifestation of the >instability of the ruling powers. Powers that are confident do not resort to >such extravagant efforts, those that are unsure(paranoid) are going >to use >as much horror to intimidate as possible. >The scale of the horror is simply a derivative of the available resources. >The essential significance is that human beings resort to terror tactics >when they feel threatened in some manner. It is the natural response of a >frightened human being to externalize their fear with grotesque displays. > >We are a little backward in evaluating a society by the quantity of heads on >display we should be looking for societies that do not display their fear so >prominently. > >On the other hand what is it about society that makes its lkeaders os >paranoid that they engage in this display. Do civilization and horror go >hand in hand? > >Some how the Idyllic nonchalant Dwarves of Tolkien, do not seem capable of >such dramatic displays. > >Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same grandiosity >applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses. >The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization. Our >need for Theatre creates civilization, not efficiency. I always wondered why >the apparently sensible Romans wasted so much on Spectacles. > >At one time in London people paid for seats at public executions. Ticket >scalpers made a good shilling out of famous executions. Not long afterwards >we saw human society supply the appetite for blood with motion pictures. > >Hitler saw himself as a Grand Architect as well as the savior of his nation. >I think Napoleon laughed when someone suggested the English might step in >and defeat his ambitions and he remarked derisively " Not the English , >they >are just a nation of little shopkeepers" I probably screwed that up perhaps >someone will correct me. > >Perhaps the need for gods was simply an extension of this basic need for >Human Beings to be awed before they would pay attention and give respect to >leaders. > > "If it can't hurt you then you don't have to pay attention" >So the psychopaths in charge know that the only thing subjects notice is a >lot of bright Red Blood events. Those psychopaths seemed to understand human >nature better than most psychologists considering the success record. > >If this were a system of agents then this would appear to be situation where >a single agent discovers a method whereby it can get the absolute attention >of all other agents by employing some low level attention activating signal. >Perhaps releasing Histamine into the cellular environment or the smell of >blood in a wolf pack are equivalent. Once you have everybody's attention >what you do next is probably based on the ethics of the culture. > >If brutality is a sign of psychological distress in the ruling elites one >would suspect Brutality to increase as a defeat nears, on the other hand if >Brutality is simply an attention focusing device then Blood circuses should >preceed expansion phases of the society. > >Any comments out there, perhaps I have already heard the answer, Hitler >accelerated the brutality but in secret, the Mayans, Romans, and Aztecs made >it quite public so the distinguishing feature is the degree of publicity, >perhaps? This adds another aspect to the thread, the public brutality was in >some way much less than the secret Brutality of Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot >(Khmer Rouge) > > > > > >Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky >Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), >M.Sc.(Biology) > >120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. >Winnipeg, Manitoba >CANADA R2J 3R2 >(204) 2548321 Phone/Fax >[email protected] > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf >Of Jochen Fromm >Sent: April 28, 2010 3:30 PM >To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn > >In the book "The ancient Maya" from Robert Sharer >he says "before we decry practices such as human >sacrifice, we should remember that Europeans of >500 years ago burned people alive in the name of >religion and submitted 'heretics' to an array of >tortures and protracted executions" > >I wonder why civilization and barbarism go >often hand in hand? The Romans for example >were very civilized, but also very brutal. >It seems as if a system becomes especially >brutal if it's existence in threatened >(the church by heretics in the Middle Ages >which lead to inquisition, the Romans by >insurgents which lead to crucification, the Nazis in >WWII..) The concentration camps of the Nazis >turned into real death factories when the >existence of the Nazi regime was threatened >towards the end of the war. > >Maybe this is the reason why the Aztecs >- who were even worse than the Maya >when it comes to human sacrifices - >developed a high culture (including >hieroglyphic writing systems and >elaborate temples) and yet drowned in >all the blood.. Because a small number of >tyrannic rulers knew their existence was >questionable and threatened.. > >-J. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky" <[email protected]> >To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" ><[email protected]> >Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:08 AM >Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn > > >> My my how elitist we are discussing the brutalities of vanished >> civilizations. Those ancient butchers were so grotesque they did each >> murder >> one at a time. Just imagine the effort involved, each methodical death >> blow >> by death blow. Such brutes, in retrospect. They must have had tag teams of >> executioners on high holidays switching arms as they grew weary. They >> probably had a drum roll to accompany the changing of the Blades. I can >> just >> see the flint knappers running up the stairs with arm loads of replacement >> inserts. Quick quick snap to it boys there is a rhythm to maintain for >> these >> special ceremonies. >> >> Only an academic can think to disregard the recent activities on the news >> and Just 70 years ago, Katyn. ( I was told it took teams of machine >> gunners >> all day to dispatch and fill the pits. They did not even have time to >> remove >> the wallets and personal items. A rush job.) >> >> Was I mistaken did I hear of seven heads delivered by the Taliban only >> yesterday. And modern Mexicans are every bit as inventive as their distant >> ancestors. Do you think they used electric saws for seven heads or did >> they >> still use flint maces? >> >> Lets tsk, tsk all those brutal Mesoamericans. And the death toll from >> white >> diseases in North America has anyone ever come up with realistic numbers. >> >> Tsk tsk, I defy any archeologist to turn up anything like Auscwitz or >> Katyn >> Civilization is organized and focused brutality. We have just become >> better >> at it none of us would waste so much effort for so few heads. >> >> What is remarkable is not the head count but the incredibly inefficient >> ritualized waste of resources these people conducted. We have surpassed >> them >> in every measurable manner and we don't even leave evidence behind to >> implicate us anymore. Katyn was a sloppy job. >> >> >> >> Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky >> Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), >M.Sc.(Biology) >> >> 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. >> Winnipeg, Manitoba >> CANADA R2J 3R2 >> (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax >> [email protected] >> >> > >============================================================ >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > >============================================================ >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > Eric Charles Professional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601
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