Not sure really what the inputs always used, but I think these Self-org & Self-adapt algorithms the SASO engineers were playing with didn't always use random generators to produce the systemic effects they were getting. Obviously all input effects all output in some sort of way, but it was the outcomes that would come from the whole gamete of unspecified inputs that seemed to be the 'phase space profile' they were most interested in. Many of the papers were on how the inputs could seriously 'misbehave' and still not screw up the control schemes, often discussed in terms of 'malicious agent' concepts, of which the real net has plenty real examples! I also found them very receptive to considering not only what a malicious person would think of doing to defeat someone else's operating plan, but also the 'malicious creativity' of natural system emergence as a focus of design contingencies.
Phil Henshaw ¸¸¸¸.·´ ¯ `·.¸¸¸¸ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 680 Ft. Washington Ave NY NY 10040 tel: 212-795-4844 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/> -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 1:19 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random? Simulations of stochastic processes also require good RN generators, especially for simulations of large systems with (I hate to use this word) emergent behavioral properties. A bad RN generator will introduce emergent behavior that will be "flavored" by a bad random sequences. -- Doug Roberts, RTI International [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell On 7/20/07, Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Cryptographic applications require true randomness. If your cipher used on a pseudo-random number generator, then a cracker discovering your algorithm and key has broken your code. I also have a hunch that genuine randomness is needed for open-ended evolutionary systems. Here, the evol algorithm is in the position of the code cracker, and once the code is cracked, the evol algorithm stops. I had a workshop paper on this in 2004, which has some problems with it. The concept is controversial, to say the least. Cheers On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:24:42AM -0600, Peter Lissaman wrote: > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true" randomness??? I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days of Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical earthshattering things -- like going to the moon -- sans computers!! The RAND corporation, for whom I consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan telephone directory) of "random" numbers for engineering application. Much entertainment was occasioned when, about three months later, they distributed a list of "typos" to their original list of random numbers. Today I use homemade random numbers alla time for real problems, specifically the actual response of real flight vehicles in real atmospheric turbulence. Flight tests support analysis, in the sense that what we predict is not obviously incorrect. We have never found it necessary to utilize any more "perfectly random" "random" sequences! > > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Mathematics UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au <http://www.hpcoders.com.au> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
