On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 5:23 PM smitra <[email protected]> wrote: > On 09-08-2020 21:00, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 1:24 PM Jason Resch <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> _> You, as well as most of the media write ups are confusing "did > >> not prove a benefit" with "proved no benefit". _ > > > > I'm not confused at all. No study has proven that leeches have no > > benefit in the treatment of COVID-19, but there is also no > > statistically relevant evidence that it does, so scientists could more > > productively spend their time studying things other than leeches. I > > mean it's not as if there are no other promising leads. And this sort > > of thing is the rule not the exception, from cancer to aids to > > Alzheimer's disease to you name it the medical literature is cram full > > of examples of drugs and treatments that hinted in very early small > > scale studies that they might be beneficial but were later shown to be > > useless or even harmful in larger more careful studies. > > > > Hydroxychloroquine is not even a controversial drug as far as the > > scientific community is concerned, the opinion is almost universal > > that it's just like most new ideas in science, it didn't work out, and > > so it's time to move on to other things; The drug only becomes > > controversial when fascist presidents and nincompoop Fox pundits enter > > into the mix. > > > >>> a statistically powerful result were all late stage studies. > > > > Considered statistically powerful by people who don't understand > > statistics, and Humans don't have an intuitive ability to assess > > probabilities, we need to calculate them. For example: If AIDS is in > > 0.3% of the population and the false positive rate of an AIDS test is > > 1% and I take that test and test positive, is there a 99% probability > > that I really have AIDS? No, the chance would be 29.7%, > > (.003*[0.99/0.01]). > > > >>> _John treats HCQ like ESP, with no science behind it. _ > > > > Not in the early days of 4 or 5 months ago, back then it was > > reasonable to be hopeful about it, but those who hold onto a blind > > belief in HCQ and refuse to even modify it one bit even now after much > > more information about it has come in then yes, they're just as > > fanatical as the ESP nuts. They will never EVER be satisfied with a > > negative result, they will ALWAYS want another larger study. > > > >>> _ __in vitro studies clearly showed its anti-viral properties,_ > > > > If in vitro studies were all that mattered people would've stopped > > dying from cancer decades ago. > > > > John K Clark > > > > Another thing to keep in mind here is that only a small fraction of the > general public end up becoming severely ill, and that people with > underlying health issues such as obesity, diabetes etc. dominate the > group of people who are at risk of needing hospital care. If we assume > fir argument's sake that HCQ does have an effect when taken in the very > early stages, that effect would then be irrelevant to the vast majority > of healthy people. If you are obese then it could be helpful to you, but > simply losing weight would have a far greater effect. This is why in > Britain they are staring a campaign for people to lose weight. > > In general I'm rather skeptical for cures in the form of drugs for the > general healthy public. If modifying a biological mechanism would have a > benefit for the healthy population, then the question is why evolution > did not implement that modification? Usually when taking pills does help > for the general public, this is related to our modern lifestyles causing > certain deficiencies, like e.g. vitamin D deficiency. And we know that > being overweight, being vitamin D deficient, lack of exercise have > negative effects on the immune system: > > > https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-fat-cell-immune-response-obesity.html > > "When obesity occurs, a person's own fat cells can set off a complex > inflammatory chain reaction that can further disrupt metabolism and > weaken immune response—potentially placing people at higher risk of poor > outcomes from a variety of diseases and infections, including COVID-19." > > https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43308729 > > "Doing lots of exercise in older age can prevent the immune system from > declining and protect people against infections, scientists say. > > They followed 125 long-distance cyclists, some now in their 80s, and > found they had the immune systems of 20-year-olds. > > Prof Norman Lazarus, 82, of King's College London, who took part in and > co-authored the research, said: "If exercise was a pill, everyone would > be taking it. > > "It has wide-ranging benefits for the body, the mind, for our muscles > and our immune system." > > The research was published in the journal Aging Cell. > > Prof Janet Lord, director of the Institute of Inflammation and Ageing, > at the University of Birmingham, and co-author of the research, said: > "The immune system declines by about 2-3% a year from our 20s, which is > why older people are more susceptible to infections, conditions like > rheumatoid arthritis and, potentially, cancer. > > "Because the cyclists have the immune system of a 20-year-old rather > than a 70- or 80-year-old, it means they have added protection against > all these issues."" > > > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100307215534.htm > > > "In order for the specialized immune cells (T cells) to protect the body > from dangerous viruses or bacteria, the T cells must first be exposed to > traces of the foreign pathogen. This occurs when they are presented by > other immune cells in the body (known as macrophages) with suspicious > 'cell fragments' or 'traces' of the pathogen. The T cells then bind to > the fragment and divide and multiply into hundreds of identical cells > that are all focused on the same pathogen type. The sequence of chemical > changes that the T cells undergo enables them to both be 'sensitized to' > and able to deliver a targeted immune response. > > Professor Carsten Geisler from the Department of International Health, > Immunology and Microbiology explains that "when a T cell is exposed to a > foreign pathogen, it extends a signaling device or 'antenna' known as a > vitamin D receptor, with which it searches for vitamin D. This means > that the T cell must have vitamin D or activation of the cell will > cease. If the T cells cannot find enough vitamin D in the blood, they > won't even begin to mobilize. "" > > > Lot's of great information Saibal, thank you. I agree there are many measures we can do individually to lower our personal risk.
I have been supplementing with D3 since this began. I am surprised the media has not been pushing this more, given the widespread deficiencies generally. One study found something around a 10 - 20 fold reduction in COVID deaths (after controlling for age and other factors) between those that had normal levels of vitamin D and those who were deficient: https://emerginnova.com/patterns-of-covid19-mortality-and-vitamin-d-an-indonesian-study/ Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUir-Mku90EfKOweDxYWrmjf0Ef9EW2zt3Mz7ni0Makxaw%40mail.gmail.com.
