On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 3:58 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 1/25/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Brent, > > Obviously the space outside a black hole event horizon is warped. That's > experimentally confirmed. My question is HOW does it become warped from the > mass inside the black hole which you now claim doesn't even exist? There > must be some cause. > > > Sure. In the case of a star that collapses to a BH the cause is the > matter which became so compressed that a singularity formed - and then the > matter disappeared into it. That's why the Schwarzschild metrice is a > vacuum solution, no matter. > > > It's much more reasonable to assume the mass that enters a black hole > does exist inside the black hole as it does produce a gravitational effect. > > > I don't trust your intuition as to what's "reasonable" - and you shouldn't > either. > > > My question is how that gravitational effect, which must travel at the > speed of light, propagate from the interior of the black hole when nothing > else can because it would have to travel at FASTER than the speed of light > to do so? > > > It doesn't have to propagate. Each bit of matter falling in already had > warped the space around it and as it crosses the event horizon it leaves > this bit of warpage outside contributing to the total of the BH. You've > got and 17th century view of gravity as something that "reaches out and > pulls on stuff". > > > > Re your implication of gravitation perhaps not being mediated by force > carrying particles. I think there are a number of reasons to doubt the > existence of gravitons. > > 1. For a flow of gravitons to explain gravity they would all > continuously have to flow in the same direction since gravity acts only in > one direction (between masses at least). That means there would have to be > an inexhaustible source of gravitons flowing from ONLY OUT from every mass. > What's the source of that inexhaustible flow? > > > See above comment. > > > > 2. Gravity is the only force that cannot be shielded. Thus if gravitons > existed they would have to flow effortlessly THROUGH everything that exists > (NON-interaction) at the same time they cause gravitational effects > (INTERACTION). An apparent contradiction.... > > 3. There is no empirical evidence whatsoever that gravitons actually > exist. > > > That's not quite true. The prediction of slowing of rapidly orbiting > double stars due to energy loss to gravitational radiation has been > confirmed by observation. If that radiation is quantized, which it must be > to be consistent with QM, then it consists of spin-2 bosons, aka gravitons. > > This is something I have always wondered: if gravitons are real, does it make the "warping of space" explanation of gravity redundant? What was the evidence that space warps to begin with? The only thing I could think of was gravitational time dilation, but are there other reasons? Jason > > > 4. Gravitons are not part of the Standard Model. > > So all and all I think there is plenty of reason to doubt the existence > of gravitons... > > > Since the theory is non-linear, gravitons are probably just a weak field > approximation. There is also Sakaharov's gravity theory and the entropic > gravity theory. Unfortunately gravity is so weak it's hard to get any > experimental evidence for or against these theories. > > Brent > > > > Edgar > > > > On Friday, January 24, 2014 10:31:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> On 1/24/2014 4:41 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >> > Brent, >> > >> > No, my proposed dark matter effect has nothing to do with black holes. >> Black holes are >> > caused by accumulations of actual visible matter, not by the Hubble >> expansion of space... >> > >> > However I do have a question for you. Since gravitational changes >> propagate at the speed >> > of light how does the mass inside a black hole produce gravitational >> effects outside the >> > black hole? If light can't come out how can gravitational effects come >> out? >> >> You are thinking of gravity as mediated by force particles, like photons >> mediate the EM >> forces. But (at least classically) gravity isn't a force, it's just a >> shape of space and >> as I responded to Liz, there's not mass in a black hole, no T_u_v term in >> the Einstein >> equation. It's a vacuum solution. That's why it doesn't make any >> different what falls in >> to create the black hole. The effects outside the event horizon are just >> that the space >> is warped there just *as if* the black hole were a massive object. >> >> Brent >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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