It’s amazing what civil unrest accomplished in China. - Mark
Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On May 24, 2021, at 3:14 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <[email protected]> > wrote: > > On 24 May 2021 at 11:26, Larry Gales via EV wrote: > >> The smaller you make a gas vehicle, the uglier, noisier, dirtier, they >> become . In addition, they are proportionally less efficient. So small gas >> vehicles are generally a bad idea: they are responsible for much of the >> horrific pollution you see in much of asia. > > This is true in practice, but I don't think it's inherent to their size. > They COULD be clean and quiet, even with ICEVs. However, that's usually not > required by law, so the manufacturers don't bother. > > From what I've read, the engines usually fitted are of crude design, with > little or no emission control. I'd guess air cooled with poppet or pushrod > valves, simple carburetors, and mechanical ignition systems. I know that a > fair number of Tuktuks are powered by two-stroke engines. Some, I think, > are Diesel. They're gross polluters, and noisy to boot. > > The reason that EV is better for these uses is the same reason that it's > better for all road transportation. The only difference is that normal > passenger ICEVs have evolved significantly and have mandated emission > controls, so the improvement for them isn't quite as dramatic. > >> Right now, the only type of micro electric vehicle that is surging in >> a major way, is the electric bike. But I believe that NEVs should also >> become a major part of the mix. > > E-bikes were the first EV sucess story of our time, from about the 1990s. > > IMO the key to that success is that they're cheap. That's because they sell > in large volumes in Asia, particularly China. Economy of scale, > competition, and cheap sweatshop labor have driven the price down to where > you can get an fairly decent E-bike for well under $1k. > > E-bikes are so cheap that for many middle income folks they can almost be an > impulse purchase. It's a hobby or fun weekend vehicle at almost a toy > price. If you're the right kind of person, it can even be a commuter. > > But the most important factor is that E-bike cost is in line with their > utility. Yeah, that $700 E-bike does a lot less than a car, but it costs > about 1/30 as much as an "entry level" car. > > An NEV also does less than a car, but more than an E-bike. For one thing, > it keeps you dry! (Or should.) You should be able to sell one if you price > it in line with its level of utility. > > And that's a problem. I can tell you that in the early 2000s, NEVs priced > at (IIRC) $7-10k didn't sell in significant numbers. Part of that may be > because they looked like (and were) glorified golf cars. But I think that a > big reason is that they were just too close to the price of low-end ICEVs, > while being far less practical and comfortable. > > Still true today. Right now in France you can get a basic 2-seat 5hp > Renault Twizy EV (doors optional!) that will go 28mph. It costs just over > 10k euros. Or you can buy a 4-seat Twingo ICEV for 13.5k euros, close the > (standard) doors, and take it up to 100mph, if you're brave enough. > > You know who in France buys a Twizy instead of a Twingo? People who've lost > their driving licenses from drunk driving, because in France you can drive a > 28mph car without a driving license. (Really.) > > It's not just perception of value. An NEV *is* low valiue compared to the > cheapest ICEV. It only carries 2 people and minimal cargo. You can't take > it on most roads. To get across town without the innerbelt, you have to > pull out the map and plot a course that here in the Midwest often goes > through rough neighborhoods - at 25 mph. > > So if an NEV is going to have anything close to the success that E-bikes > have had, it has to be cheap, in line with its value as transportation. > > How cheap? I don't know. You'd have to study the market, survey vehicle > buyers. But a wild, irresponsible guess might be around $5k, maybe $7k. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > I think [Rio de Janeiro mayor Marcelo] Crivella will be > remembered as a mayor to be forgotten. > > -- Alvaro Costa e Silva > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > _______________________________________________ Address messages to [email protected] No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
