I certainly concur with your analysis: fuel cells are not a good option for cars, but large scale energy storage is a much more likely possibility
On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There certainly > is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which > it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport > medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision > to work on HFCVs. > > A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in > mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable > energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its > potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale. > > I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an early > adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff > like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster.. > > He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a > workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of > environment and habitat, etc. > > At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good. > You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it > with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it > liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I think it > would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for > pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes > for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for > electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on. When you > scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly. It is bad enough the > 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it > would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its > production and use. > > I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials > needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages. > > I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power > vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move. > > BentMIke > > > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/ > > Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward > with > > hydrogen anyway > > Oct. 26th 2017 Fred Lambert > > > > [image > > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/ > > electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg? > > quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600 > > > > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_ > > hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all > > ] > > > > For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over > > battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put > > the > > Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry. > > > > Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell > > “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing > > in > > the technology. > > > > Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as > > an > > energy storage system for vehicles. > > > > For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense > > compared to battery-powered vehicles. > > > > Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell > vehicle > > ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle > > getting > > its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the > hydrogen. > > > > The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered > > vehicle. > > > > The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. > You > > can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car > > can > > take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour. > > > > But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be > > refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight. > > > > That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward > > when comparing the two technologies. > > > > Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s > > Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense: > > > > “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly > > by > > plugging in,” > > > > But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two > > technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet): > > > > “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the > > EV > > (electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on > > hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.” > > > > They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer. > They > > only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the > > generous incentives. > > > > Electrek’s Take > > > > He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t > compete > > in the minds of potential customers, but they compete for investments > from > > automakers and those investments lead to further development and > production > > for one or the other. > > > > It becomes clear when you look at automakers who have been heavily > > investing > > in hydrogen cars, like Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, and see that they have > > become laggers in the EV space. > > > > The sooner they give up on hydrogen, at least for passenger cars, the > > sooner > > they will be able to divert those billions of dollars in investments into > > battery-electric vehicles. I say passenger cars because Toyota is also > > working on hydrogen trucks, which make better economic sense. > > > > But for passenger cars, it makes no sense based on efficiency and > > economics, > > which makes it hard to understand why some automakers are still pushing > so > > hard for it ... > > [© electrek.co] > > > > > > > > http://www.news18.com/news/auto/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car- > > push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-1558347.html > > Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Car Push 'Dumb'? Toyota Makes a Case For The Mirai > > October 26, 2017 ... which usually goes to waste when unused, and > > electricity generated by solar and ... “Elon Musk is right - it's better > to > > charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” ... > > > > > > > > > > For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: > > http://evdl.org/archive/ > > > > > > {brucedp.neocities.org} > > > > -- > > Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ > > group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > -- > Michael E. Ross > (919) 585-6737 Land > (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet, > Google Phone and Text > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/ > attachments/20171029/3a086242/attachment.html> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ > group/NEDRA) > > -- Larry Gales -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20171029/17f5210e/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
