Mark, That is a very bold statement and I have heard such dismissive hand-waiving before, so I am not going to accept that on its face, I challenge you to support that with data. As someone else said: as soon as you have combustible gas (methane) any further processing is going to reduce the amount of available energy, so with every step after the point that there is raw Methane produced, you are making it harder to even be energy-neutral for H2. Does this matter? You bet! Efficiency is what eventually will dictate the cost (price) of H2, so let alone the investment in the car (fuel cell) there are the running costs. If the H2 car cannot compete in running costs (efficiency) then why would anyone get such a beast and bother with the lack of infrastructure? For CNG, it is already distributed to almost every home in the country. It is very simple to make a home-filling station for a CNG car, besides refueling at dedicated sites. The situation with H2 is (and will be for many years, hopefully forever) be very different. I doubt that H2 is more energy efficient than turning the Methane into electricity and recharging a BEV, but let's see the data. And it may be interesting to compare that to solutions such as a CNG internal combustion vehicle and to a Methane-burning capstone turbine Hybrid EV such as Wrightspeed is making these days (for larger commercial trucks).
Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130 Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 -----Original Message----- From: EV on behalf of Mark Abramowitz via EV Sent: Thu 4/23/2015 11:35 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV runs on Musk's bull$$it Sure, that question has merit. I only answered his first question. But the emissions I was particularly referring to were combustion emissions at the tailpipe...not CO2 emissions, which certainly are of relevance. But when the ZEV standards were adopted, the driver was nonattainment criteria pollutants. Efficiency certainly has bearing on GHGs, cost and other things, but is not the be all, end all. Or the hobbyists on this list would be arguing incessantly about ...everything. Clearly, at the tailpipe, nat gas v. H2 is "some emission number I don't know off the top of my head" versus zero. I guess if you go want to go beyond that you might assume worse case (?) that the cars are in the SCAQMD and the H2 is all produced by steam reformation in-basin. I don't know what that number looks like, but I'll bet it's still a huge advantage to use H2. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Mike Nickerson <[email protected]> wrote: > > I think Ben's question still has merit, though. If you start with methane > and take it down two paths, what is the difference in emissions and > efficiency? The first path is burning the methane in an ICE. The second > path is converting the methane to hydrogen and using it in a fuel cell. It > seems like the hydrogen conversion is still likely to create CO2. How does > the hydrogen cycle reduce air pollution from using methane? > > Mike > > >> On April 23, 2015 7:28:17 PM MDT, Mark Abramowitz via EV <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> On Apr 23, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Ben Goren via EV <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> Um...why not just use that methane as is? I mean, we already do -- >> every vehicle with a "CNG" or "LNG" sticker on it is burning methane. >> >> To reduce air pollution. That's why CARB adopted the ZEV mandate. >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 5106 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150424/4cabd8ec/attachment.bin> _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
