Hi Mike, I agree completely. These are the details that, after the design, can make or break a product..
-- Doug Nix [email protected] When you put a thing in order, and give it a name, and you are all in accord, it becomes. From the Navajo, Masked Gods, Waters, 1950 > On Aug 29, 2023, at 17:18, MIKE SHERMAN <[email protected]> wrote: > > Doug speaks from experience similar to mine---the standards tend to do a good > job of addressing risks, so it's good to spend some time on things maybe not > explicitly covered in the standards. > > My pet peeve list includes workmanship issues, such as properly torquing all > terminal connections, especially those on components. Plus routing, bundling, > and securing the wiring correctly (e.g., properly segregating low voltage > wiring). And only stripping the specified length on line voltage conductors > where they enter components, to reduce the risk of touch shock. These are the > kind of details a good UL 508A panel shop will do for you if you contract it > out. Conversely, these are things you have to come up to speed on if you do > the work in house. > > Another thought: not only is the designer a good person to have in on the > analysis, but also bring in a field service technician for a reality check on > how things are actually used (I love Doug's photograph!). > > Mike Sherman > Sherman PSC LLC >> On 08/29/2023 4:01 PM CDT John Allen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Very good point on the Designer to be a part of it. You may consider a HARA >> vs an FMEA to get to the bottom of your question. To Rich Nute’s point a >> long time ago to me – what are the hazards we are concerned about?? >> >> >> A Hazard Analysis Risk Assessment is a top down approach of Hazards vs an >> FMEA calling out each part and what can go wrong. HARA asks what are all >> the Hazards associated with this product/system/event. What in the design >> mitigates against those hazards? What tests can I do to prove those >> mitigating factors work? and is that adequate? >> >> >> There are many ways to understand overall safety of a product/system/event – >> FMEA, HARA, HAZOP, etc. We should work to a common way or even some >> guidance in this area. The LVD says a “risk assessment shall be in the >> technical documentation”. Thanks for the guidance!! >> >> >> If there are any leaders in this group regarding such I’d love to discuss >> possible Hazard Analysis and Risk Assessment methodologies and Standard(s). >> Along with a PSES Technical Committee and Track at ISPCE. >> >> >> Best Regards and Be Safe, >> >> >> John >> >> >> John Allen | President & CEO | Product Safety Consulting, Inc. >> >> Your Outsourced Compliance Department® >> >> 630-238-0188, Cell: 630-330-3145 >> >> <image001.jpg><image002.png> >> <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Product-Safety-Consulting-Inc/97306850917><image003.png> >> <http://twitter.com/SafetyTesting><image004.png> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/productsafetyconsultinginc> >> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVSzENmSoWeNFSBQcOYN7-A >> www.productsafetyinc.com <http://www.productsafetyinc.com/> >> >> IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society >> >> President Elect 2023, President 2024-2025, Past President 2026 >> >> President 2016-2019 >> >> Compliance 101 Technical Committee Chairman >> >> IEEE Senior Member >> >> >> <image005.png> >> >> Keeping our members informed and educated on Product Safety and Compliance >> >> >> https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/index.html >> >> >> Although PSC maintains the highest level of virus protection, this e-mail >> and any attachments should be scanned by your virus protection software. It >> is the responsibility of the recipient to check that it is virus free. PSC >> does not accept any responsibility for data loss or systems damage arising >> in any way from its use. This message is confidential and intended only for >> the individual to whom or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not >> the intended recipient or addressee, or an employee or agent responsible for >> delivering this message to the addressee, you are hereby notified that any >> dissemination, distribution, or copying, in whole or part, of this message >> is strictly prohibited. If you believe that you have been sent this message >> in error, please do not read it. Please immediately reply to sender that >> you have received this message in error. Then permanently delete all copies >> of the message. >> >> Thank you. >> >> >> From: Douglas Powell <[email protected]> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 3:12 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PSES] DFMEA Component Selection >> >> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] DO NOT CLICK links or attachments unless you recognize the >> sender and know the content is safe. >> >> I have always considered that the design engineer, who is most familiar with >> the product, needs to be involved in DFMEA and forthcoming about potential >> difficulties. And it's not just about components but also various use models >> ranging from manufacture to servicing to the end user. A hypothetical >> example: a heavy module installed in a high location, requiring handling by >> two people. >> >> >> And cases of foreseeable misuse are also part of this. My favorite example >> is this photo of a man using the electrical panel of a pivot sprinkler to >> get a view of something in the distance. The securement of that panel is >> obviously not designed to carry that much weight. This is a photo I found >> online, and I have no idea who it is. >> >> >> <image006.jpg> >> >> >> In general, certified components used within their ratings are not as big a >> concern, but it is good practice to include them in any case. When >> performing a DFMEA, you want to focus on identifying failure modes that are >> not explicitly covered by existing safety standards. This involves looking >> beyond the standard's prescriptive requirements and considering potential >> failure scenarios that could arise due to the unique nature of the >> component, device, or product and the way it is being used. Keep in mind >> that FMEA, of any type, is generally a bottom-up approach, whereas FTA is >> top-down. Using the two in conjunction has sometimes been referred to as a >> Bowtie Analysis. >> >> >> -Doug >> >> >> >> Douglas E Powell >> >> Laporte, Colorado, USA >> >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/coloradocomplianceguy/> >> >> (UTC-06:00, US-MDT) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 1:30 PM Ronan Shanley >> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> We are going through a DFMEA process for an enclosure we have designed but >> are having trouble determining which components to analyze. We know we want >> all the safety rated components and likely the upstream components of those >> as well. We’re unsure if we should include components related only to >> functionality or how granular we should get with the components upstream of >> the safety components. For example do we include the wire feeding the safety >> controller or what about the terminal blocks? Is anyone familiar with where >> the limit for component criticality usual falls for DFMEAs? >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> RONAN SHANLEY >> >> EE >> >> >> <image007.png> >> >> >> ALERT INNOVATION >> >> www.alertinnovation.com <http://www.alertinnovation.com/> >> >> >> This message (including any attachments) may be confidential and privileged >> communication to the intended addressee. If you are not the intended >> addressee, you have received this message in error. In that case, please >> permanently delete this message and notify us at >> [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> so that we can avoid this >> inconvenience in the future. Thank you. >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All >> emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> <https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/%20> >> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/> >> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> >> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Mike Sherman at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Rick Linford at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: >> https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All >> emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> >> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/> >> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to >> unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> >> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Mike Sherman at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Rick Linford at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: >> https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 >> > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All > emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > > Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/> > Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> > List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Mike Sherman at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Rick Linford at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: > https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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