I want to second Martin's post. I grew up in France and followed the public school system until grade 6. The school curriculum places a lot of importance on French grammar and spelling and courses are intensive. When I moved to the US I was surprised to find out that English class didn't really focus on grammar explicitly. While French grammar is obviously quite different, I felt I had a much better grasp of grammar in general and also at spelling. I did not speak English prior to coming to the US. So yes, I fully concur with Martin in that learning foreign languages is very important.
Alexandre Chausson On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 4:43 PM, Martin Meiss <[email protected]> wrote: > I am a native speaker of English, and had the standard exposure to English > instruction that was given in US high schools in the 1960's. Even so, I > didn't really learn English grammar until I studied German. Learning a > foreign language, assuming it goes beyond the merely conversational, forces > one to learn grammar, and perhaps more importantly, makes one realize that > linguistic features we think of as "natural" or "logical" are not at all > universal, or even sensible. I've have heard comments to the effect that > since my time in high school, English teachers have for various reasons > essentially abdicated teaching grammar. I think this makes learning a > foreign language essential to any educated person, including scientists. > > Martin Meiss > > 2015-02-04 6:27 GMT-05:00 Akwasi Asamoah <[email protected]>: > > > Yes, it is a fact that majority of scientists are not native English > > Speakers. However, majority of desired research logistics and destination > > outlets are found in Anglo-America. I would say, basic standard English > > (eg. tense, concord, structure, comprehension, summary) that affords > > everyone else (even the native English speaker) the opportunity to do > > effective scientific/technical communication in the most accurate and > > concise English language is what ought to be assessed/ascertained. High > > verbal aptitude by native English standards as predominates our current > > aptitude tests (GRE, TOEFL, IELTS), in my opinion, does very little in > > attempting to assess adequate skills in scientific/technical > communication > > which frequently come already acquired in other native languages. This > > would allow non-native English speakers (who happen to be the majority of > > scientists and engineers) to use time which would otherwise have been > spent > > learning verbiage to learn other very important skills like math, > modelling > > and programming language. > > > > > Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 18:05:49 -0700 > > > From: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] language exam for Ph.D. students? > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > This is all interesting to me. I need to ask which is more beneficial: > > taking the time to learn english well or taking the time to learn and > add a > > skill to your analytical toolbox? Also if is science is to become a > > greater part of society shouldn't english speaking scientists take the > time > > to learn a second language? The majority of humans and don't speak > > english. I'm also willing to bet that most scientists don't speak > > english. Just some thoughts to stir the pot. > > > Cheers. > > > Daniel > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [ > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Akwasi Asamoah [ > > [email protected]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 11:36 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] language exam for Ph.D. students? > > > > > > Dear Ash, > > > Yes, math and computer skills are more critical requirements for > science > > but some reasonable level of basic standard English is also very crucial. > > Often poor, inappropriate or complex language hugely drain comprehension > > out of our science and engineering. I do believe that though GRE, TOEFL, > > IELTS and their like can be an efficient mens of assessing English > > Proficiency, they do not in themselves constitute effective means of > > testing proficiency in scientific or technical communication. Thus, why > > communication requirements like english translation of and/or quizzing on > > peer-reviewed publications may come in handy as addition means of further > > ascertaining true technical or scientific proficiency. > > > I mean if we are to be truly honest with ourselves, one does not have > to > > have such high verbal aptitude to read, critique and communicate > scientific > > and technical facts. it may be agreed that sometimes high verbal aptitude > > breeds costly liberties with the English language (as is often with > > inexperienced so-called 'native speakers'). The more they try to prove > > their nativeness in language, the more they are likely to be needlessly > > verbose to the erosion of understanding. Often, scientific and technical > > papers are rejected purely on the basis of strange English language, as > > though the the non-native author (s) suddenly invented their own English > > language for their paper. > > > Thus, I think our English proficiency tests should aim to test more of > > reliable indicators of adequate knowledge of standard basic English by > way > > of basic english grammar (concord), lexis and structures, and > comprehension > > than the testing of high verbal aptitude which often throws science and > > engineering in ambiguity and haywire. > > > Scientific and/or technical communication is not exactly the same as > the > > English literature as is known or approved by native speakers. Thus, > > prospective recruiters would need to find a more effective way of > assessing > > proficiency in technical and/or scientific communication for successful > > completion of early career research work. > > > Akwasi > > > > Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 16:50:45 +0000 > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] language exam for Ph.D. students? > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Just to be fair we should implement an exam to ensure that all > > graduate students are fluent in at least one computer language- > regardless > > of native language! I would argue that logical computer syntax is more > > critical than illogical English syntax to one's future success in > science. > > > > > > > > ash > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of David Inouye > > > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 4:38 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: [ECOLOG-L] language exam for Ph.D. students? > > > > > > > > I know Univ. of NC still had a requirement in mid-1970s as I had to > > take an exam then, and my son had to take one at Duke in the 1990s. > > > > Are there still any Ph.D. programs that require students take a > > language exam? Typically students had to read a paper in the chosen > > language, and then answer questions about it posed by a faculty member or > > committee to confirm comprehension. So just a reading requirement, not > > spoken. > > > > > > > > David Inouye > > > > > --
