Unfortunately, we have descended into a state in Science where once
something is published we just accept it and move on.  IN fact, the
idea that "this has already been done" or that "once published its
fact," is complete hogwash.

To suggest that a single publication is sufficient to warrant
something a fact is baloney.  The publication must be challenged by
the scientific community, and confirmation should appear in
publication.  This does occur in some fields, but has been rather
slacked off on in some areas of biology of late.  For example, in 2003
I published a paper in ZOotaxa on the validity of the subspecies Acris
crepitans blanchardi.  My provided evidence that EITHER the subspecies
was invalid and the species A. c. blanchardi was a single highly
variable species, OR it was a multi-species complex.  SO, right away a
bunch of people started declaring the subspecies was canned and dumped
it. Not more than 9 mo later, anotehr paper came out that suggested
Acris crepitans and Acris blanchardi were two separate species.  SO,
immediately everyone was re-writing their papers with the species
names.  Several people are still working on the systematics of this
frog, and I won't say more than the current taxonomic situation is
probably wrong too.  SOOOOO, in a matter of 1 year, we went from 1
species with two subspecies, to 1 species with no subspecies, to 2
species.  However, none of these studies were complete.  Together they
tell us a lot. For the moment, two species is probably right, but
people jump the gun to accept things JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE PUBLISHED>
had we been patient, there would have been one change.  So much of
what happens is this way.  We need to have patience before accepting
published results as facts, give time for the results to be challenged
so that we move in the right direction all at once rather than
haphazardly bouncing back and forth.

Who beards the cost?  SCIENCE does.  Its not the editor, the reviewer,
the author, or the technician along or in part, its everyone who is
involved, from the funder to the reader.  If a reader is at odds with
a study, they should be writing a response/rebuttal with demonstration
of why they disagree.  Not enough of this happens today.  Nothing is
sacred about publication other than the scientist took the time to
complete his/her study.  Its not done until its published!  Peer and
editor review only helps with eliminating the most critical mistakes.
The better the peer reviewers are chosen, the more effective it is at
that task.  however, it was never intended to be a way to attack
people under the shroud of anonymity, reject results for the benefit
of our own internal conflicts of interest that we do not declare when
asked, nor was it intended to make sure only the perfect study is
published.  In fact, there is no perfect study, researcher, reviewer,
editor, or reader.  So, it is our job, all of us, to contact authors
with questions when we do not understand what we are reading, even as
peer reviewers!  Why not?  heck, I just peer reviewed a paper and
asked the author to send me a copy of one of their articles they
cited!  It really is not that big of a deal.  However, some people are
vindictive or even full of baloney and like to take out vengeance on
others. This is probably why we really have anonymity.  But, as I
said, this is not a perfect system.  things get published, errors are
made, and mistakes are missed.  Its called the human element, and it
will always be there.

That doesn't make the scientist a bad investigator, the study a bad
study, or the results poorly deduced.  It just means, if a human being
did it, you can find something wrong with it.  So we don't need to be
buttheads and insult folks or whatever, just state what is wrong, why
it is wrong and if you know how to fix it.

The biggest problem is when you have a paper and you get responses
like, "I don't know anything about this topic, but I'm going to
criticize things I don't understand and make a fool out of myself to
the author."  This happens all the time.  IF you  are not qualified to
review it, don't.  Or, if you are qualified to review certain aspects
but not others, then restrict your comments to the things you actually
have a clue about.

For example, my favorite peer review was my submission to a certain
not-for-profit open-access journal published by a certain well known
organization.  I sent a paper to its One journal and got the review,
signed by a Physicist who had no background in anything the paper was
about.  When a reviewer reviews a paper they have no expertise, heck
no background in, the article has not been peer reviewed.  It has been
read by someone, possibly in an editorial capacity.

  As long ans we are sucker bait for every published paper, and peer
review manuscripts we are completely unqualified to peer review, and
editors allow this to happen, and readers allow papers to go without
question, things will not work right.  As long as we question
everything, it will.

On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 3:33 PM, David Schneider <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear ecologers,
>
> The question posed in the quote on fact-checking
> from David Duffy is:
> Who should undertake the cost of fact checking?
> The quote gives 3 answers: warranty by the author, make the
> data available, in-house by the publisher.
>
> In my experience, as reviewer and in an editorial capacity,
> one can expect a reviewer to check the facts (results) against
> interpretation.  But it is often difficult for a reviewer to
> fact check the results, simply because the data are of necessity
> presented in summary fashion.  Here are two examples.
> If I see a confidence limit that includes zero,
> where the data are counts, I can be fairly sure as a fact
> checker that the wrong error distribution was used to
> compute the ci.  If I see a standard error or standard
> deviation on count data, such that the variance is not at
> least twice the mean, then I am suspicious, but I can't
> check it, in the absence of the data.
>
> In my view the advent of online data archives are an important
> step.  I would also suggest that journals need  to do more
> than ask the author to warrant that they checked the facts.
> I would suggest that a journal ask an author how they checked
> the facts.
>
> That's my view.  What is your take on who should undertake
> the cost of fact checking?
>
> Best,
> David S.
>
>
> Quoting Malcolm McCallum <[email protected]>:
>
>> It is REALLY easy to screw up a figure, table or number set in a text
>> if you have no one to review it before submission.  IF you are a peer
>> reviewer, this is one of the things you probably should be looking at.
>>  Do the numbers make sense?
>> Peer review isn't there just to screen out garbage, its also there to
>> assist authors. This is especially the case when an editor selects a
>> reviewer specifically because of their exprtise in a particular area.
>> I recall once as an editor that I sent a paper that involved some
>> fancy modeling to a mathematical modeler to review the math.  It was
>> outside of what I did.  She said he didn't know anything about the
>> biology, and I told her that was easily covered by the other two
>> reviewers, I just wanted to make sure the math was not tom-foolery.
>> More of this needs to happen in peer review.  I see a lot of papers
>> that misuse different techniques.
>>
>> For example, I recall a paper published in one big ecology journal in
>> which they used baysian statistics, and misinterpreted the sets.  They
>> said something had an effect, when the graph and stats clearly
>> indicated there was no effect!!!  So, the paper ended up widely
>> covered in the news and people assumed it was what it said, when what
>> it spent 4-5 pages discussing was complete rubbish.  I've also seen
>> interval analysis used where fuzzy sets should be used, and the misuse
>> and over-use of monte carlo analysis is just over the top.
>>
>> Monte Carlo is only supposed to be used when you have a very great
>> understanding of the system and very few assumptions and hopefully not
>> a lot of unpredictable influences.  This is actually not all that
>> common in ecology and environmental work.  yet, Monte Carlo is used
>> and abused by simply "Assuming" things are that might not be.  When
>> you do this with MC you can get VERY wrong answers and there is
>> virtually no way to check it.  Fuzzy approaches are much more rubust
>> in this regard as is interval analysis. But, you hardly see anyone who
>> knows how to use these things, or people are caught 20-30 years
>> out-of-date thinking they are controversial.
>>
>> The ideal way to do things is to use fuzzy sets to isolate your data
>> sets to be used in monte carlo.  That way, you reduce the odds of
>> going completely off tangent. However, no one seems to do this either.
>>  it is pretty amazing because outside of ecology, the alternate
>> methods are widely applied to many different situtaitons.  heck, they
>> even have fuzzy monte carlo and fuzzy neural networks now.  But, that
>> is an entire different topic.
>>
>> The point is, I think it is very reasonable for an editor to select a
>> peer reviewer form an outside field to check up on methods and
>> techiques that are outside of his/her expertise, especially if these
>> are highly technical and particulary novel.  A biologist is not always
>> the best reviewer for some biology papers in such cases.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 1:11 PM, David Duffy <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > "To address this, the publishers of clinical journals must do more to
>> > ensure that someone takes responsibility for the fact-checking. That could
>> > involve asking authors to guarantee that they have checked figures,
>> tables,
>> > text and abstracts for internal consistency. Publishers could require
>> > authors to make available suitably anonymized data on each patient as
>> > metadata to the study, so that readers can trace the source of any
>> > discrepancy that might creep through. Or the publishers could reach into
>> > their pockets and provide more in-house resources to perform the necessary
>> > checking. What is not acceptable is for the situation to continue as it
>> is,
>> > with responsibilities undefined and inexact publishing distorting clinical
>> > messages."
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.nature.com/news/false-positives-1.15119?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20140501
>> >
>> > David Duffy
>> >
>> > Pacific Cooperative Studies Unit
>> > Botany
>> > University of Hawaii
>> > 3190 Maile Way
>> > Honolulu Hawaii 96822 USA
>> > 1-808-956-8218
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Malcolm L. McCallum, PHD, REP
>> Department of Environmental Studies
>> University of Illinois at Springfield
>>
>> Managing Editor,
>> Herpetological Conservation and Biology
>>
>>  “Nothing is more priceless and worthy of preservation than the rich
>> array of animal life with which our country has been blessed. It is a
>> many-faceted treasure, of value to scholars, scientists, and nature
>> lovers alike, and it forms a vital part of the heritage we all share
>> as Americans.”
>> -President Richard Nixon upon signing the Endangered Species Act of
>> 1973 into law.
>>
>> "Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive" -
>> Allan Nation
>>
>> 1880's: "There's lots of good fish in the sea"  W.S. Gilbert
>> 1990's:  Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss,
>>             and pollution.
>> 2000:  Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction
>>           MAY help restore populations.
>> 2022: Soylent Green is People!
>>
>> The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi)
>> Wealth w/o work
>> Pleasure w/o conscience
>> Knowledge w/o character
>> Commerce w/o morality
>> Science w/o humanity
>> Worship w/o sacrifice
>> Politics w/o principle
>>
>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any
>> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
>> contain confidential and privileged information.  Any unauthorized
>> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited.  If you are not
>> the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and
>> destroy all copies of the original message.
>>



-- 
Malcolm L. McCallum, PHD, REP
Department of Environmental Studies
University of Illinois at Springfield

Managing Editor,
Herpetological Conservation and Biology

 “Nothing is more priceless and worthy of preservation than the rich
array of animal life with which our country has been blessed. It is a
many-faceted treasure, of value to scholars, scientists, and nature
lovers alike, and it forms a vital part of the heritage we all share
as Americans.”
-President Richard Nixon upon signing the Endangered Species Act of
1973 into law.

"Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive" -
Allan Nation

1880's: "There's lots of good fish in the sea"  W.S. Gilbert
1990's:  Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss,
            and pollution.
2000:  Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction
          MAY help restore populations.
2022: Soylent Green is People!

The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi)
Wealth w/o work
Pleasure w/o conscience
Knowledge w/o character
Commerce w/o morality
Science w/o humanity
Worship w/o sacrifice
Politics w/o principle

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any
attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
contain confidential and privileged information.  Any unauthorized
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited.  If you are not
the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and
destroy all copies of the original message.

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