Hi Aaron, thanks for you thoughtful commentary, as for my comment about faculty publishing independently I think that you have read more into it than I meant. What I did mean, and still believe, is that a faculty member should have research productivity that is their own rather than just through their graduate students. Nonetheless, that was much more possible 14 years ago than it is today given: 1) the tremendous increase in administrative responsibilities/paperwork that faculty have incurred in the last 15 years, 2) the increased difficulty in getting grant money, and 3) the tremendous decrease in departmental assistantships available today. I know that you have strong feelings about many things Aaron but one thing that you should be incensed about is the number of graduate programs that provide little or no support for graduate students in the form of TA's or RA's yet claim to have "a graduate program". In many institutions the only way to take on a graduate student is to have grant money, and if I've gone to the trouble of writing a grant then the likelihood is that I've already satisfied many if not most of the prerequisites (ideas, writing & submitting the proposal, etc.) for co-authorship. So I would weight that sentence less much less heavily than I did 14 years ago, but still would be pleased to see independent research in a faculty member. What I absolutely did not mean, is that faculty members should advance their own careers at a cost to their students -- the situation that you describe, and I would never advocate going to a lab where students were exploited. But I also think that being an assistant prof. these days at an R1 institution is no picnic and I could see students sometimes feeling that they're exploited when the situation is much more complicated than they realize. As for students doing completely independent research in a scientists lab, well sometimes that does happen (e.g., they have their own funding for research and salary) and it should be encouraged. Certainly when tenure time came up if an Asst. Prof. had in their dossier "I've had 4 PhD students who worked completely independently and I'm not on any of their papers" they would be in bad shape in most departments. And one could reasonably ask "is that really a lab" if everyone is working independently without contributing to others work sufficiently to earn coauthorship, especially the professor. But certainly this is an extreme case and one which I use only to demonstrate a potential problem if we extend some comments in your post. But perhaps that wasn't what you meant either <g>.
cheers, gary On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Aaron T. Dossey <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thank you Dr. Grossman for the article. It contains very good advice and > is well written and timely - again. :) > > Of course for agencies and organizations to cure the systematic ills in > academia today, they should look at an article like this as an instruction > or "to-do" list as they evaluate faculty bosses, departments and > institutions as those agencies and organizations formulate policy going > forward. I can only hope they are doing this! Since I am a hands-on > advocate, I'll probably send this article around to a few. > > I am also intrigued by one sentence, and your more detailed take on it: > "Does the professor have publications that are independent of their > graduate students?" From my experience, and in the current culture of > academia, I would take this as a huge negative. IE: If the professor has a > lot of papers that do not involve his/her students, but the student pub > list seems to be small - I would say that is a professor whose only > interest is bolstering their own career (arguably this seems to be rampant > in academia, from my experience) and the student should deduct points for > it. It could be the case that both the lab and professor are highly > prolific, so the boss's independent papers, particularly if they are > invited papers to high ranking journals, edited books, and other > prestigious works, can probably add clout to the students that come from > that lab (though the inflated importance of "who you know and where you > come from (and lately, "who you are married/related to")" in academia > troubles me greatly - ok, I'll be honest, infuriates me). > > Sort of an alternative version of that question, or a new question not > considered here, I think would be even more important is to ask: do any of > the students, and especially postdocs, in that lab or former ones from that > lab have papers that do not involve that boss which came out while they > were there (a VERY good sign!) and/or within a year thereafter? If so, I > would say that the training in that lab, or at least the level of academic > freedom required to self-train and self-promote in lieu of training and > mentorship from the boss, is likely quite good. If not, I would inquire as > to why. If none of them had any interest in doing independent work, then > it may have been that they never bothered asking or trying (and, ethically, > if the work is independent, thus should be the REWARD - a standard very > lacking in academia. Instead of "to the victor go the spoils", in academia > it is "to the professor go the spoils"). Of course, if those > students/postdocs never bothered asking or trying to do independent studies > on the side - I would wonder why the "mentor" never prodded or required > them to, since that is a critical part of their "training". If the answer > is that they were fearful to ask or assumed or knew that it was foridden, > or asked and were told no - I would NOT choose that lab period. Students > and postdocs should be more interested in the success rate of their peers > in/from a lab they are considering joining than that of the boss - because > that of their peers is much more germane to them. > > ATD > > > > > On 10/20/2012 10:19 AM, Gary Grossman wrote: > >> The French have an expression which describes the current grad. school >> situation and advice that's been given (at least to us old-timers) that >> goes "plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose" (apologies for the lack of >> accents) which translates loosely into our English expression "the more >> things change, the more they stay the same". Given that the same advice >> seems to be repeated over and over I thought that I'd just post my very >> short article on choosing a major professor published 14 years ago in 1998 >> now you can even have something to cite <g>. >> >> *NOTES FROM THE BLACKBOARD (1998)* >> >> (*Fisheries 23*:16-17) >> >> >> By >> >> Gary D. Grossman >> >> The recent sustained growth of the United States economy has had a direct >> impact on the field of fisheries, as more and more individuals have become >> interested in both revenue-producing and recreational activities involving >> fishes. Concomitant with this growth is an apparent proliferation of >> educational opportunities in our field. Although there probably are more >> jobs available in fisheries today than ever before, a surfeit of well >> qualified graduates has made competition for these jobs particularly >> intense. Consequently, it is not uncommon for highly trained fisheries >> graduates to have difficulty in obtaining employment in the field. These >> circumstances necessitate that future graduates be highly prepared, if >> they >> hope to gain a job as a fisheries manager or researcher. In fact, most >> professional positions in fisheries now require at least a Masters degree. >> Given that graduate training is an essential credential for the >> prospective >> fisheries biologist, I would like to share several pointers that I have >> learned over the 16 years that I have been training graduate students. I >> suspect that these suggestions will be of benefit to a wider audience than >> just my students alone. Of necessity, I am going to speak in generalities >> here, and I am well aware that not every strategy works every time, or for >> every person. In addition, although I recognize that Fisheries has an >> international readership, my comments probably will be most relevant to >> residents of the United States, the region of my expertise. I will begin >> with suggestions on how to choose a major professor or graduate program >> and >> end with strategic hints for current graduate students interested in >> improving their potential employability. >> >> First, your choice of graduate program and major professor probably will >> have a greater impact on future employment than any other educational >> decision that you will make. Consequently, before deciding to join a >> faculty member's research group, inquire about the placement rate of >> graduates from her/his lab. Like most activities that engage a variety of >> people, I suspect students will find that some faculty have high placement >> rates, whereas other professors have no idea of the number of former >> students currently working in the field. The same can be said for graduate >> programs: some have very high placement rates of their students (this >> tends >> to most true at the state biologist level), whereas others have a poor >> record. Despite the importance of these factors, in my years of >> interviewing prospective graduate students, rarely have I been asked about >> the placement rates of either former students, or our graduate program. My >> point is that students must recognize that both graduate programs and >> major >> professors vary in quality, and if a choice is made without evaluating the >> relative merits of a given major professor or program, then a substantial >> handicap may be incurred. >> >> >> >> Second, one of the best ways of evaluating professors or graduate programs >> is by talking to former students. Although discussions with current >> students can be helpful, of necessity these students may be less candid >> than former students are. As with most discussions of important personnel >> matters, it probably is just as important to register what is not said as >> to note what is said. Finally, make an attempt to match your strengths and >> weaknesses as a student to your major professor's style of supervision. If >> you function best independently, do not choose a major professor who >> thinks >> that graduate students are incapable of washing their hands by themselves. >> Alternatively, if you require occasional prodding to complete tasks, then >> working with a more interactive major professor may be best for you. Like >> all bosses or mentors, major professors come in a wide variety of flavors >> and sizes and you need to choose one who will best compliment your >> abilities and needs as a graduate student. >> >> >> >> Third, ask for a copy of your potential major professor's curriculum vita, >> then examine it carefully. Determine whether or not this professor is >> actively publishing, and if so, is she/he publishing in first rank >> journals? Does the professor have publications that are independent of >> their graduate students? Does she/he have a good record of grant support? >> Do they regularly attend professional meetings and give invited papers and >> seminars? Has the professor won teaching awards? Does she/he have strong >> contacts at other universities, federal and state agencies? Although few >> professors can meet all of these criteria, a strong major professor will >> meet most of them. >> >> >> >> Fourth, if getting a job is your sole reason for going to graduate school, >> be sure to examine job postings and talk to perspective employers before >> choosing a research topic. You will find that there are major >> discrepancies >> in the employment opportunities of graduates in the various subdisciplines >> of fisheries. Make sure you choose a graduate program that provides >> training in a subdiscipline in which there is high job availability. For >> example, graduates in quantitative population dynamics seem to have great >> success gaining positions regardless of the market, whereas students who >> undertake basic natural history studies of species with little economic >> importance, frequently have great difficulty finding jobs. (I am not >> commenting on the relative merits of these two research areas, just on the >> employability of students who pursue them.) In addition, if time permits >> try to gain proficiency in a secondary discipline (GIS training, >> population >> modeling, etc.). You have to be well qualified to obtain a position in >> fisheries, but having strengths in more than one area will greatly >> increase >> your chances of employment. >> >> Fifth, if you are a PhD student and you want an academic job, try to >> obtain >> part-time teaching experience prior to graduation (e.g., small liberal >> arts >> schools frequently hire part-time faculty). I am suggesting teaching your >> own undergraduate lecture class, not being a teaching assistant. And make >> sure that you have student evaluations for the class. Nothing impresses >> search committees more than someone who is strong in both research and >> teaching, and has the publications and teaching evaluations to prove it. >> Teaching experience, especially diverse teaching experience, is >> particularly important for positions at small four-year institutions, >> where >> a biology department may consist of 3-7 faculty who cover all aspects of >> the discipline. >> >> Sixth, write your dissertation in chapters which can be submitted for >> publication independently. (Make sure your committee agrees to this >> beforehand.) Many students who are close to finishing their degrees are >> eliminated from searches due to a lack of publications. Publishing prior >> to >> graduation will reduce the probability of this occurring. In addition, it >> shows that you are productive and can meet the standard expected of >> researchers. Finally, it will greatly increase your chances of securing a >> position before you finish, if you can say, "Well chapter one is out, >> chapter two is in press, and I'm almost finished with the final chapter". >> >> >> >> Seventh, network, network, network: go to meetings, present papers and >> posters, ask your major professor to introduce you to senior scientists >> and >> potential employers, or go up and politely introduce yourself. Polite is >> the operative word here, because being pushy will definitely work against >> you. All these activities will increase the probability that a potential >> employer will be able to recall a face when she/he looks at your >> application. This will yield a definite advantage over other applicants. >> In >> addition, you will increase your chances of hearing about positions before >> they are officially advertised (e.g. many positions are advertised by word >> of mouth long before the copy appears in Science or Fisheries). >> >> >> >> In closing, my list, though hardly exhaustive, is meant to provide >> students >> with constructive advice on how to choose a graduate program, or if >> already >> enrolled, how to increase your chances of obtaining a job in the field of >> fisheries. It is clear that the students of today face great uncertainty >> with respect to future employment, nonetheless the rewards of a career in >> fisheries can be tremendously satisfying on both personal and professional >> levels. >> >> >> >> Acknowledgments This contribution benefitted from the comments of Cecil >> Jennings and members of the Fish Ecology Internet Newsgroup. In addition, >> Patton (1996, Fisheries 21:14) has provided many other valuable >> suggestions >> on the general topic of how graduate students can improve their >> qualifications. >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. > Biochemistry and Molecular Biology > Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs > Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation > http://allthingsbugs.com/**about/people/<http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/> > http://www.facebook.com/**Allthingsbugs<http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs> > 1-352-281-3643 > > -- Gary D. Grossman, PhD Professor of Animal Ecology Warnell School of Forestry & Natural Resources University of Georgia Athens, GA, USA 30602 Research & teaching web site - http://grossman.myweb.uga.edu/<http://www.arches.uga.edu/%7Egrossman> Board of Editors - Animal Biodiversity and Conservation Editorial Board - Freshwater Biology Editorial Board - Ecology Freshwater Fish Sculpture by Gary D. Grossman http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gary-Grossmans-Sculpture-Portfolio/124819124227147<http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#%21/album.php?aid=2002317&id=1348406658> Hutson Gallery Provincetown, MA - www.hutsongallery.net/artists.html My ukulele channel - www.youtube.com/user/garydg29
