Hi Jim et al.,

I guess I don't undertand what one would mean by your question, as to whether they "behave" differently. No two species behave the same in any event, so any given pair of species "behaves" differently, regardless of origin. Have you read Ricklefs - Disintegration of the ecological community? If the community is more of an accident in space and time rather than a co-evolved bunch of species, then there is no reason to think that any two species "behave" the same.

Let's put it in terms of testable hypotheses. Let's say we have two species, A and B, both are "native" and we have C, "non native."

Hypothesis: (A = B) ne C? (where ne is not equal).

Clearly A ne B ne C, because, they are all different species. If you can put your idea of "behavior" being "equal" in terms of testable hypotheses, I think we could advance.

I would also like to see the word "matter" as in "does it matter?" placed into a real context, with hypotheses included. I still think the ambiguity of the terms is the reason behind the confusion.

Cheers,

Jim

James Crants wrote on 10-May-10 19:23:
Jim,
Actually, you answered the question of whether exotic and native species can be distinguished at all, while the question we could not agree on is whether the distinction is ecologically meaningful. Does an exotic species behave differently from a native one? If not, then why should it matter to an ecologist whether a species is native or not? I say exotic species do behave differently, for reasons I gave in my post, and I think it does matter whether a species is native. Dr. Chew (as I understand it) says exotic species do not behave differently, as a group, that the distinction is ecologically meaningless, and that it therefore does not matter whether a species is native. We define "native" and "exotic" based on geographic history, and I think he says that that's the only distinction that can objectively be made between the two categories. I would agree with William Silvert that we are getting wrapped up in irrelevant rigor, except that I think important things might hang in the balance here. Invasive species biology loses most of its social relevance if native and exotic species are not ecologically distinguishable. Also, while I agree that we have to accept fuzzy definitions for fuzzy concepts (i.e., most concepts), a tendency emerged in the off-forum discussion to fuzz everything together to the point where humans are just another organism, nothing we do is exceptional, and we have no moral obligation to modify our ecological impact, one way or another, even if doing so is well within our power. That's a matter of using such fuzzy definitions that they cease to be definitions at all, which is different from what Silvert is advocating, but I guess I'm just saying that it's important not to throw out a categorization just because the categories have fuzzy boundaries.
Jim Crants

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 4:52 PM, James J. Roper <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

    Ah Jim,

    But that question is easy to answer.  If humans put the species in
    a place or it arrived in a place that it would not have gotten to
    on its own, then it is introduced, otherwise it is native or
    natural.  Clearly this is a mere consequence of the short history
    of humans as dispersal agents on the planet, but it is a good
    enough definition for 99% of the cases - just check the classic by
    Elton.

    We already have the term "naturalized" which basically means it's
    here to stay and there is nothing we can do about it.

    I personally think that for almost all intents and purposes, those
    definitions work.  When they don't work, we are either splitting
    hairs or don't have clear objectives.

    I think a clear consequence of this, is that humans should avoid
introducing and we should often actively eliminate introductions. But, that idea is based on the premise that we want nature to run
    its course without human help - but that is not a universally
    accepted premise.  And, a second premise is that evolution by
    natural selection and how nature may have influenced that through
    genetic drift, lateral gene transfer or what have you, is what is
    interesting about nature.  I can see a future in which ecologists
    merely study how natural selection influenced organisms after
    their introduction, or as a consequence of the introduction of
    other species.  Boring.  After all, those will always be on a
    short term scale and will only illustrate what we probably already
    know about evolution.  The big picture, long term consequence of
    continental drift, punctuated equilibrium and so on, which have
    resulted in the fascinating diversity of life, do not occur in one
    or two human generations - but we can certainly wipe out the
    evidence of them in the same short time frame.  Extinctions and
    introduced species will do just that.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    James Crants wrote on 10-May-10 12:51:
    Jim and others,

    In the discussion off-forum, we were unable to come to any conclusions
    because we could not agree on answer to even the most fundamental question:
    is the distinction between exotic and native species ecologically
    meaningful?  If you can't agree on that, there's no point in going on to ask
    whether there's such a thing as an invasive exotic species, whethere
    invasive exotics are a problem, and what, if anything, we should do about
    it.

    In our conversation, Matthew Chew argued that the distinction between native
    and exotic species is ecologically meaningless.  A species does not have
    higher fitness because it is dispersed by humans instead of other agents.
    Most species dispersed by humans fail utterly in the new environment to
    which they were dispersed.  Very few species are evolutionarily specialized
    for human-mediated dispersal (I think exceptions would be some of those
    species we use as crops, pets, and livestock, and some agricultural weeds
    that have evolved such that their seeds are difficult to separate from crop
    seeds).  An "invasive" exotic species shows the population dynamics you
    would expect for any species that is rapidly expanding its range, regardless
    of its origin.  If exotic and native species are not biologically
    distinguishable, then the distinction is merely "historically incidental."
    The categories are not ecologically meaningful, and they are only useful for
    marshalling support for one group of plants (natives) and opposition to
    another (exotics).

    Actually, Dr. Chew adhered strictly to the term "alien."  Many people write
    and talk about "alien" species, and this term, as well as the term
    "invasive," provoke hostility.  They do not serve us well if we want to
    discuss these things rationally.  On the other hand, since Dr. Chew
    considers these terms to be ecologically meaningless, he is not obliged to
    suggest alternatives, and he does not.  I use "exotic" instead of "alien"
    because it seems less inflammatory, but Dr. Chew and I agree (I think) that
    there is no way to discuss exotic and native species without ending up
    favoring one category over the other, regardless of what labels we put on
    them.

    That's my summary of Dr. Chew's arguments, as I understand them.  As he
    amply demonstrated in the off-forum discussion, he can make his case much
    better than I can.  I have CC'ed him because I don't think he's on this
    forum, and he might want to make his point in his own words.

    Initially, my argument was on moral grounds:  whatever negative effects
    invasive species have on native species are the fault of our species (unless
    a non-human disperser was responsible for the intial long-distance-dispersal
    event, which very rarely happens), and, as moral agents, we are obligated to
    try to undo or mitigate the harm we cause to others.  That's my Catholic
    upbringing speaking, I guess, and it's apparently not a compelling argument
    to someone who hasn't already reached the same moral conclusion on exotic
    invasives.

    I was working on a factual argument against the assertion that exotic
    species are not ecologically different from native species, but I have not
    had time to check what I believe to be true against the evidence.  Maybe
    others can help on the evidence, but I'll keep working on it.  For now,
    here's what I think is true:

    (1) Exotic species, on average, interact with fewer species than native
    species, and their interactions are  weaker, on average.  In particular,
    they have fewer parasites, pathogens, and predators, counted in either
    individuals or species.  This is especially true of plants, and especially
    non-crop plants.  I suspect, but have not heard, that exotic plants also
    have fewer mycorrhizal associates than native ones, but I doubt that they
    have significantly fewer pollinators or dispersers.  Meanwhile, back in
    their native ranges, the same species have the same number of associations
    as any other native species.

    (2) Very-long-distance dispersal by humans confers a fitness advantage over
    very-long-distance dispersal by other agents, on average, for two reasons.
    First, humans often disperse organisms in groups, such as containers of
    seeds, shipments of mature plants and animals, or large populations
    contained in ballast water, allowing them to overcome the Allee effects
    (lack of mates, inbreeding depression) their populations would face if
    introduced as one or a few individuals.  We also often take pains to
    maximize the establishment success of organisms we disperse, by shipping
    healthy, mature plants and animals and propogating them when they arrive,
    while non-human dispersal agents usually introduce small numbers of
    organisms, often nowhere near their peak fitness potential (e.g., seeds,
    spores, starving and dehydrated animals).

    (3) Although the population dynamics of invasive species do not differ by
    what agent introduced them (whether humans brought them, some other agent
    did, or they evolved in situ), it is ecologically consequential that human
    activities are generating so many more invasive species than natural
    processes usually do.  Aside from maybe continents or oceans merging through
    plate tectonics, nothing non-human introduces such a flood of new species to
    new environments as we humans have in the last several centuries.

    (4) To arrive at the conclusion that the terms "native" and "exotic" (or
    "alien") are ecologically meaningless, you must approach the issue this
    way:  if there is no set of criteria by which one can reliably categorize an
    organism as native or exotic in the absence of historical evidence, the
    distinction is meaningless.  I think the valid approach is this:  if there
    is no set of criteria by which one can reliably distinguish the category
    "native species" from the category "exotic species" (*after* the
    categorization is done based on geographic history), the distinction is
    meaningless.  By analogy, the first approach is like saying that there is no
    difference in height between men and women because one cannot reliably
    identify the height of a person by their sex, while the second approach is
    like saying that there is a difference in height between men and women
    because men are, on average, significantly taller than women.

    That's all.  If you've read this far, I salute you.

    Jim Crants


    On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:38 AM, James J. Roper<[email protected]>  
<mailto:[email protected]>  wrote:

    Wayne, and others,

    This email was nebulous enough to where it appears to me that several
    concepts are being bantered around to the detriment of resolving any.

    Of course all terms are relative - we humans made up language to put names
    on things to help us.

    The problem of invasive species is important or not, depending on your
    particular philosophy, so you would have to come to some common grounds
    first to resolve what invasive is second.

    The problem of invasives is just like the problem of endangered species.
    99% of all species that ever lived are extinct, so we know that it is a
    consistent evolutionary process.  Probably 99% of all species that exist
    started out somewhere else.  However, the glitch is that in our generation,
    we are causing the extinction of many species at a much more rapid rate than
    nature ever did, and we are causing the introduction of species in new
    places at a rate much more rapid than nature ever did.

    As Elton in his classic book on introduced species stated (here
    paraphrased), Because of introductions and their consequences, we will be
    left with a world much simpler, much less diverse, and much less
    interesting.

    Sincerely,

    Jim

    Wayne Tyson wrote on 07-May-10 16:47:

    Ecolog:
    Back on April 12, 2010, I posted an enquiry along these lines that
    resulted in an off-list discussion between three Ecolog-l subscribers and
    three others. A lot of interesting points were made, but this side
    discussion did not, in my view, settle the matter of what terminology, if
    any, should be used to describe the ecological phenomena associated with
    plants (and other organisms) that "colonize" or "invade" parts of the earth
    upon which they did not appear/evolve before dispersal by human culture
    (including various artifacts and impacts and domesticated plants and animals
    and their cohorts).

    Since the off-line discussion did not seem to resolve the issue beyond
    opinions, I am submitting my version of the results for consideration by the
    Ecolog community.

    Among the points (you can ignore these, but they give SOME idea of where
    the discussion wandered) made by various correspondents were:

    1. Persistence is an interesting problem, since it requires an arbitrary
    stipulation.  Fitness is demonstrated (or not) generation by generation.

    2. . . .why ARE so-called "natives" of a higher value than so-called
    "exotics"?  How far back are we supposed to go before something is
    considered "native?"

    3. . . . humans should learn how the land works, make minimal changes and
    only necessary ones, and try to adapt to the landscape as best as possible,
    using history's lessons to create our future.  Trying to make zero
    "footprint" or impact or change as we live our lives is like trying to swim
    without getting wet or making ripples.

    4. Eventually Albert Thellung split 'aliens' into 7 distinct categories in
    1912: ergasiophytes, ergasiolipophytes, ergasiophygophytes, archaeophytes,
    neophytes, epecophytes, and ephemerophytes; plus two more denoting 'wild'
    plants growing in modified habitats.  Search any of them and they'll pop up
    in recent central European literature, but they're dead letters in the
    Anglophone world.

    5. Alien and invasive are both relative.  The labels are relevant only in
    areas where new populations have (respectively) appeared, and spread in some
    discomfiting manner.  They provide no information about any biological
    essence of any species . . .

    6. What matters is fitness under prevailing conditions.

    7. . . . the whole question of what response to invasive species is
    morally best is beside the point.

    8. For now, I still believe that each of these terms reflects an objective
    reality, but that each has nebulous boundaries.

    9. The danger of separating natural from artificial mentally might be that
    we think we have to exclude nature wherever we go.  The danger of not
    separating them is that it can help us rationalize an anything-goes approach
    to natural systems.

    10. Have we decided on any definitions, or are there still differences
    about terminology? Are we ready to list them yet, even if with a
    multiplicity of definitions? Either way, it looks like we're making
    entertaining progress in the realm of associated phenomena. Maybe that's the
    first, if indirect, hurdle in gaining a workable set of terms?

    11. My question is, what belongs there, and why?

    12. . . . the important thing is to keep the lines of communication
    open--ESPECIALLY with those who have "alien" ideas.

    13. Once an idea catches on, it's next to impossible to replace it with
    another one--something like the tenacity of an alien species--or, one might
    also say with equal "validity" or "spin," that, like the popular pastime of
    reasoning by analogy, that it is an example of resistance to invasion.

    14. I am interested in the question of whether we ought to "subsidize the
    unfit, and suppress the fit."


    My own summary interpretation of some of the various conclusions are:

    1. All organisms move from place to place by some means.

    2. Some don't survive in some places.

    3. Some survive and reproduce in "new" places better than some of the
    organisms that apparently evolved adaptations in accordance with site
    conditions.

    4. Because of various semantic alliances, word meanings and etymology, and
    interpretations thereof, terms like "colonizer," "invader," and "alien" are
    deemed unsatisfatory to some for the purposes of disciplined enquiry into
    ecological phenomena.

    5. Testable hypotheses seem to be lacking.


    This is all very incomplete; I hope that contributions from Ecolog
    subscribers will help to make it more so, if not resolve the issue(s).

    WT


    --


         James J. Roper, Ph.D.

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    Ecologia, Evolução e Dinâmicas Populacionais
    de Vertebrados Terrestres
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--
James Crants, PhD
Scientist, University of Minnesota
Agronomy and Plant Genetics
Cell:  (734) 474-7478

--


     James J. Roper, Ph.D.

Ecologia, Evolução e Dinâmicas Populacionais
de Vertebrados Terrestres
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caixa Postal 19034
81531-990 Curitiba, Paraná, Brasil
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E-mail: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Telefone: 55 41 36730409
Celular: 55 41 98182559
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Skype-in (Brazil):+55 41 39415715
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