Unfortunately, I do not have time to collect "proof", but the continual barrage of emails that are being exchanged is perking my interest, so I am wasting my time with this conversation! However, I am surprised that we are getting insults thrown around! . One thing I am noticing in reading through many universities is that Ed.D. dissertations often culminate in a publication, whereas Ph.D. in education dissertations result in either a monograph, book, series of publications etc. An Ed.D. dissertation seems to be much more similar to a MS thesis in that it investigates a limited scope study and has a beginning and end. A Ph.D. in education dissertation generally is the foundation of a long-term life-long research program. This is what I am perceiving from glancing program requirements.
At the end of this email are a few program time frames. Certainly you can find some Ed.D. programs with equivalent requirements to a Ph.D. in education. You will not find an Ed.D. that qualifies you to be a biology professor doing anything beyond Biology education. I spent 30 min trying to find one, I've never heard of one, and thus far, no one on here has produced one. In fact, I have yet to ever meet an Ed.D. doing biology research, (that is not the same as biology education research). I am sincerely sorry if you went through an Ed.D. program and were given the impression that everyone accepts it as equivalent to a Ph.d. Certainly some people do do this, but most university faculty do not. I have been on many search committees at multiple institutions and have never seen an Ed.D. apply for a professor job in a discipline unless it was an "education" vacancy. It should be pointed out that most universities will not hire an MD, DVM, OD, DOC, DA, DO, DPH, etc. to be a professor. These degrees, like an Ed.D. are USUALLY specialized and targeting a specific career goal that IS DIFFERENT than that targeted by a Ph.D. This doens't mean an Ed.D. is a weaker degree, it doesn't mean that an Ed.D. is a waste of your effort, it doesn't mean that you should be embarrassed to admit you have one, and it doesn't mean that Ph.D.s should look down their noses at Ed.D. degrees, and it certainly does not mean people with Ed.D.s are somehow less intelligent than those with Ph.D.s. However, if you attend an Ed.D. program, and you are told that you can be a biology professor, you should certainly question what was told to you. Whether rightfully so or not, it is VERY CLEAR from the opinions vooiced by a cross section of folks on this listserv that the Ed.D. degree IS NOT viewed as equal to a Ph.D. EVEN IF IT SHOULD BE! There seems to be great variation in the dissertation requirements for an Ed.D., most Ph.D.s are fairly similar. At least some Ed.D. programs require nothing more than additional coursework, and no dissertation. This places you in a complex situation if you choose to do an Ed.D. because most university jobs will require extensive research training and experience because a university professor is supposed to relay knowledge and expand our current knowledge base. An Ed.D. is often an administrator degree with more in common whit an MBA or MPA than to a PHD in the sciences. To repeat the advice given to me by a Dean of Education at a prominent university (names are left out because it was in confidence): If given the choice, do the Ph.D. because many folks view an Ed.D. as inferior. (NOTICE, HE WAS NOT DECLARING THAT AN EDD IS INFERIOR, ONLY THAT MANY THINK IT IS INFERIOR). So, if given the choice between continual battles regarding your qualifications, avoid the issue and get a Ph.D. His specific statement was..."many folks get the Ed.D. because they are simply looking for advancement in their school district and do not want to take the time to do a dissertation. THIS IS NOT THE VIEW YOU WANT PLACED ON YOU WHEN LOOKING FOR A JOB IN A UNIVERSITY!" According to College Confidential, the average time required to obtain a Ph.D. as a full-time student is 5.5 years, with many taking as many as 7 years. According to Voir Dire it is 8.2 years. Time to degree in Ed.D. programs.. 2-3 year Nova Southeastern University 6 semesters California State University-Sacramento University of Georgia Southern..All requirements for the degree MUST BE COMPLETED within 3 years. University of North Carolina-Wilmington Traditionally, a Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) is a degree where for which the candidate completes a dissertation that involves theory and contributions to the theoretical knowledge base in the field. A Doctor of Education (Ed.D.) is a degree where for which the candidate typically conducts research on local practitioner issues or problems for the dissertation. The Ed.D. program is intended for practicing professionals who envision themselves as public school leaders, superintendents, state policy makers or higher education curriculum, instruction and supervision specialists. This is a program primarily for those with B-12 public school leadership experience and/or who see themselves in B-12 public school system-wide leadership roles. Length of time for Ed.D. = 3.5 yrs (60 sh) St. Louis Univeristy Ed.D. = To provide a doctoral program designed to meet the needs of experienced administrators. To provide experienced administrators with the opportunity to share their expertise with others in the field of education. To provide experienced administrators with the opportunity to pursue in-depth investigations of selected topics related to building and school district issues. To provide an environment where significant research can be pursued with colleagues of similar backgrounds and experiences. The Ed.D. program consists of 38 credits beyond the master's degree, including the submission of a doctoral project. Ed.D. students take three post baccalaureate research courses. In addition to the formal research courses taken in the program, students research and write papers for all graduate courses.38 sem hrs (NO DISSERTATION) Ph.D. = 60 sem hrs coursework, dissertation, comprehensive exam, higher ed The Ed.D. degree in Curriculum and Instruction is designed to provide a personalized program of advanced educational experiences for mid-career educators who are or would like to become leaders in school district, educational agencies, or in other professional capacities. The Ed.D. degree in Curriculum and Instruction through the Department of Instruction and Teacher Education is offered in four areas: Early Childhood, Elementary, Secondary and Community and Occupational Programs in Education. A common core of 18 hours in curriculum, instruction and research is required in addition to 12 dissertation hours. Each student plans a program of additional courses with a doctoral committee. Bella Online: The Ed.D. was developed for practitioners and the Ph.D. for collegiate-level teachers/researchers. The number of graduates and the number of faculty/administration with Ph.D.s is typically higher at a research oriented institution; while the number of Ed.D.s in both areas is typically higher at a comprehensive institution (see The Ph.D. versus the Ed.D.: Time for a Decision by Russell Osguthorpe and Mei Jiuan Wong). Beyond that, there is typically little difference. Both degrees have real, tangible value and both permit you to teach and/or practice. Regents University: The Ed.D. is delivered primarly online (along with one-week summer residencies) and is designed to facilitate the learning styles of adults and provide a collaborative community for higher-level thinking and problem solving. The problem-based curriculum, applied dissertation projects and individually designed cognates allow for a tailor-made program. Undergirding the entire program is critical thinking, scholarly research, writing and learning from a Christian worldview. The capstone project, as with any doctoral program, is the submission and defense of a doctoral dissertation project. no dissertation from what I can find. Miami University: Ph.D. Requirements A doctoral program normally requires three to five years post-baccalaureate work and generally includes three stages. First stage ends when you receive a master's degree or earn the equivalent credit (30 semester hours) with a minimum grade point average of 3.0. Second stage includes fulfillment of departmental requirements and successful completion of your preliminary comprehensive examination. The Ed.D. is available only in the Department of Educational Leadership. Although the general requirements listed for the Doctor of Philosophy apply to the Doctor of Education, the latter is specifically designed for students professionally oriented to a career in the field of education. Advanced research courses, therefore, may vary from those pursued in other fields, and the program may be considered more appropriate to those especially interested in public education. Residency requirement for the Ed.D. may consist of three consecutive summer sessions of two terms each, with a normal registration for six credits per term on the Oxford campus, and continuous registration in each intervening fall and spring semester until the degree is earned. You must contact the chair of the Department of Educational Leadership to arrange for this plan of residency. Third stage comprises research and seminars, preparation of your dissertation, and your final examination. (UNIVERSITY OF NORTH DAKOTA) Should I earn a Ph.D. or an Ed.D. degree? There is no right or wrong answer to your question! What I suggest you consider in making this decision is your long term goal. An important difference is in course requirements. The total number of credits required for the Ph.D. is 90 credits and for the Ed.D. it is 96 credits . Ed.D. students are required to take 12 credits in the area of educational foundations (Psychological, Sociological, Historical, Anthropological, etc. foundations) and Ph.D. students take 6 foundations credits. Ph.D. and Ed.D. students are required to take EFR 500, Foundations of Educational Thought in addition to the other foundation requirements. Additionally, Ed.D. students take six credits in the area of research (qualitative or quantitative statistics) and Ph.D. students take 12 credits of research courses. A Ph.D. dissertation must reveal new findings; it must represent an original and independent investigation in the major field of study while an Ed.D. dissertation is often based on a practice in the field of education. This is not to say that Ed.D. students do not do original research, because most of the time they do. We do not differentiate as clearly as perhaps we should between the Ed.D. dissertation and the Ph.D. dissertation. As stated at the beginning, examine your end goal. If you intend to work and teach at a University, sometimes there is bias for the Ph.D. I do not believe this to be the case at UND and some of our faculty in education have the Ed.D. degree. There has been quite a bit written about the Ed.D. degree versus the Ph.D. in the past few years because many schools do not do much to differentiate between the two degrees. Overall, I think this discussion has reached an impasse. Unfortunately, you can call a rose a daisy, but you still have a rose or visa versa. If you prefer roses, fine....don't complain about it if others think its a daisy. If you prefer daisies, fine...don't complain if others think its a rose. If you think that there is a huge amount of unfairness between perceptions of Ed.D degrees versus Ph.D. degrees, this is only the tip of the iceberg of what influences the marketability of your graduate education. On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 6:38 AM, David M. Lawrence <[email protected]> wrote: > Malcolm, > > How often do you make sweeping generalizations with an N of 1? > > I don't see any substantial difference here, anyway. In forestry, you want > to make bigger logs faster -- so what's the difference in concept in an > Ed.D. wanting to make smarter students? In both cases, you are relating > academic knowledge to professional practice. > > Dave > > malcolm McCallum wrote: >> >> Below are a comparison of the requirements for an Ed.D., Ph.D. in >> education, and the Ph.D. in natural resources & environmental sciences >> form the University of Illinois. I got these from U of I because as >> an AAU member it is among the elite of universities and because I knew >> it had all three degrees offered, and that they were recognized as >> very good degrees. so, in comparing the three degrees, you will >> notice some very specific differences. This info was lifted directly >> from the official websites. You will notice that these three degrees >> have very different purposes. The Ed.D. is a degree to practice >> education. The Ph.D. in education is for someone interested in >> researching education. The Ph.D. in NRES is a degree for someone >> interested in researching natural resources and environmental >> sciences. these differences are fairly standard, and every >> institution with which I am familiar except for Harvard and possibly >> Texas A&M University-Commerce follow this pattern. >> >> Ed.D. Education >> 64 hrs beyond the masters >> 24 hrs in area of specialization >> 4-16 hrs of dissertation research >> must pass final defense >> Dissertation: >> The Ed.D. dissertation is intended to demonstrate the Ed.D. >> candidate’s ability to relate academic knowledge to the problems of >> professional practice. The dissertation should be characterized by the >> kind of synthesis of experiences that is the hallmark of a highly >> qualified professional. The demonstration of these qualities may take >> a variety of forms such as: (a) a field study; (b) a scholarly, >> original paper dealing with the interpretation and evaluation of the >> work of a particular writer whose findings have a significant bearing >> on any aspect of the educational enterprise where the significance has >> not been clearly indicated by earlier studies; or, (c) an analytic >> report demonstrating the student’s ability to carry a project through >> from conceptualization to evaluation. (Graduate Faculty Action, >> February 15, 1973). The dissertation usually requires a year or more >> of study. Registration in dissertation research hours for on-campus >> students, or by petition for credit in absentia, after the completion >> of the required 64 hours beyond the master’s degree is optional. This >> registration typically comes after the course work is completed and >> before the time limits are reached. The College of Education does not >> limit the number of dissertation research hours a student can take, >> however, no more than 16 can be counted toward the Ed.D. credit >> requirements and at least 4 hours is expected. >> >> Ph.D. Education >> 64 hrs beyond Masters >> 32 hrs of coursework in the major >> 4-32 hrs of dissertation credit >> must pass final defense >> >> The Ph.D. dissertation is intended to demonstrate the student’s >> capacity for independent research. In it, the student should make an >> original contribution to knowledge. (Graduate Faculty Action, February >> 15, 1973). The dissertation usually requires a year or more of study. >> Registration in dissertation research hours for on-campus students, or >> by petition, in absentia after the completion of the required 64 hours >> beyond the master’s degree is optional. This registration typically >> comes after the course work is completed and before the time limits >> are reached. The College of Education does not limit the number of >> dissertation research hours a student can take, however, no more than >> 32 hours can be counted toward the Ph.D. and at least 4 hours is >> expected. >> >> Ph.D. in natural resources and environmental sciences >> 64 hrs beyond the masters >> 32 hrs or more of courses >> 32 hrs or more of dissertation research >> must pass preliminary examination prior to candidacy for Ph.D. >> Must pass final defense. >> >> This is all they had on the Ph.D. in NRES. However, this degree >> frequently requires in excess of three-four years spent doing >> research, and virtually all graduates take more than four years to >> complete the degree. Ed. D.'s can take as little as a few years of >> fulltime study to complete. >> >> The point is, the issue that an Ed.D. is not qualified to teach as a >> biology professor has nothing to do with insult or perception. The >> degree simply is not intended, in most cases, even to be a teaching >> degree but rather a professional degree for those seeking principal >> and superintendant jobs. The Ph.D. in education is a degree for those >> interested in studying the field of education (and teaching about it), >> and the Ph.D. in and science is a degree for those interested in >> studying that science, and teaching about it. The degrees have very >> little to do with each other, focus on completely different career >> goals, and overlap little. >> >> It is no different to say an Ed. D. is not qualified to be a biology >> professor than it is to say a Ph.D. is not qualified to drill teeth. >> A typical Ph.D. is not a dentist, a typical Ed.D. is not a research >> biologist, and a typical Ph.D. in education generally is not seeking a >> post as a principal. >> >> Maybe this will clear this mess up that is obviously getting a little >> twisted and causing grief! >> >> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 9:38 PM, David M. Lawrence <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> It's nice to see the enlightened opinion here -- i.e., tripe -- but until >>> someone comes up with a substantive difference between the two types of >>> degrees, all I can conclude is that the critics of Ph.D.s are bigoted >>> jerks >>> better suited to wearing white sheets and burning crosses than scientists >>> who dispassionately pursue the evidence no matter where it leads. >>> >>> Put up, or shut up. Comments like Tupper's and Tyson's, given that they >>> are >>> in print, amount to libel of anyone with an Ed.D. >>> >>> If you're going to criticize it in such terms, you better have evidence >>> to >>> back your statement up. So, what is it? >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> Tupper, Mark (WorldFish) wrote: >>>> >>>> I'd beg to differ with that. If you want "opportunities" and "placement" >>>> in aquatic biology and fisheries (i.e. a real job after university), get >>>> a Ph.D. >>>> Get an Ed.D. if you want to be a bartender or make money in real estate. >>>> >>>> Mark Tupper >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:07 AM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] EdD vs PhD >>>> >>>> EdD is a BS degree in makeup, and is for those who want "opportunities" >>>> and "placement." PhD is for the passionate. >>>> >>>> WT >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Beugly" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:18 AM >>>> Subject: [ECOLOG-L] EdD vs PhD >>>> >>>> >>>>> My name is Jayson Beugly. I am currently pursuing an EdD in science >>>>> (aquatic >>>>> biology and fisheries)and an opportunity to switch to a PhD has come >>>> >>>> up. I >>>>> >>>>> am searching for advice on the pros and cons of the PhD vs EdD. There >>>>> seems >>>>> to be a bit of confusion regarding place and opportunities available >>>> >>>> for >>>>> >>>>> recipients of these respective degrees. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank You >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> -------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: >>>> 03/11/09 08:28:00 >>> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>> David M. Lawrence | Home: (804) 559-9786 >>> 7471 Brook Way Court | Fax: (804) 559-9787 >>> Mechanicsville, VA 23111 | Email: [email protected] >>> USA | http: http://fuzzo.com >>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> "We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo >>> >>> "No trespassing >>> 4/17 of a haiku" -- Richard Brautigan >>> >> >> >> > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------ > David M. Lawrence | Home: (804) 559-9786 > 7471 Brook Way Court | Fax: (804) 559-9787 > Mechanicsville, VA 23111 | Email: [email protected] > USA | http: http://fuzzo.com > ------------------------------------------------------ > > "We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo > > "No trespassing > 4/17 of a haiku" -- Richard Brautigan > -- Malcolm L. McCallum Associate Professor of Biology Texas A&M University-Texarkana Editor, Herpetological Conservation and Biology http://www.herpconbio.org Fall Teaching Schedule & Office Hours: Ecology: M,W 1-2:40 pm Cell Biology: M 6-9:40 pm (don't ask!) Forensic Science: T,R 10-11:40am Office Hours: MW 12-1, 5-6, TR 11:40-12:30, 1880's: "There's lots of good fish in the sea" W.S. Gilbert 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, and pollution. 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction MAY help restore populations. 2022: Soylent Green is People! Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
