I'm going to attempt to reach out to some folks who I think might be more likely than us to benefit from a code of conduct and ask if they have anything to add. I'm not mounting a public campaign, I just think we're missing some important perspectives.
On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 3:15:10 AM UTC-4, Robert Grant wrote: > > Good email. This one won't be that good. > > Boiling my verbose email down to two sentences: > > We seem to already have a private group of people who make decisions in > secret and pronounce a verdict on issues, and who can to a large extent > control the community. If this is the case, and they already have total > control should they choose to exercise it, a Django ASBO won't give any > extra power over - and thus protection against - griefers/bullies/whatever. > > Just to hedge my bets, if the group does decide to create the ASBO, could > it be called the Anti-Social Django Act? > > On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 7:33 AM, Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> Hi Kevin, >> >> And thanx for responding to my question about the need for such a >> policy with Django. Last night, as I had not yet had a response from anyone >> about this question I searched the archives of both django groups looking >> for any events or circumstances in which the code of conduct was invoked as >> I had no personal recollection of any such thing. I found some innocuous >> reference in the django-users group (wrongly suggesting that this coming >> policy was going to increase female participation) and in >> django-developers, one actual circumstance where its use was threatened - >> not surprisingly as part of the one example you provided that actually has >> anything to do at all with the Django community. Sadly, it's invocation was >> precisely used in the manner that I had feared - to stifle debate and >> threaten a person who was making valid and reasonable arguments (no doubt >> in the middle of a flame war but he/she wasn't the flamer). When I saw the >> name of the person who invoked the code of conduct I was even more >> disappointed as it was someone that I otherwise have a profound respect for. >> >> Other than this I was not surprised to see zero evidence for the need >> for such a policy as there don't seem to be any threatening events of the >> like that your email raises. These problems may exist elsewhere but not >> amongst the general django community that I've ever seen. >> >> Understand my background. I own a software development company that >> was a VERY early adopter of Django way before the 1.0 days. I expect I was >> certainly one of the first thousand developers to use Django in a real-life >> situation once it got outside of the newspaper where it was created. My >> company is one of the first to build commercial systems for clients on top >> of Django. My staff even has a few little commits into the django code base >> over the years, although minor, but we were proud nonetheless to be able to >> contribute in some small way. I've attended my share of PyCons (prior to >> the invention of DjangoCon which I hope to attend one day) and have always >> found the community very open and inclusive of all types. This is a Good >> Thing (TM). I've even sent 5 staff to the event, four of which happened to >> be women. My team now consists of 34+ people, all but two of which are in a >> technical capacity. WE are geeks who seek out other geeks who want to be >> appreciated solely based on merit. We happen to have about a 40% female >> colleague share and explicitly do NOT have a diversity policy (nor will we >> ever have an HR department but that's another story). I simply am strong at >> identifying and attracting people with strong potential and the market is >> so extremely competitive that one must leave no stone unturned in order to >> find the best. THAT is the one way that a more inclusive group will come >> into being and for the right reasons. >> >> So I have actually achieved what everyone is crying out for and can't >> seem to figure how to accomplish. It wasn't difficult. I'm here to tell you >> that diversity policies and codes of conduct, in my experience consulting >> to dozens of commercial, government, and educational organizations in my >> 30+ years of experience have never once helped achieve their stated goals >> and, many times, have hurt both the organization and it's intended >> beneficiaries. True to my experience, the one threatened invocation of the >> code of conduct for Django fits right in line with my experience of such >> policies, sadly. >> >> Therefore, I hope everyone appreciates that I'm fully invested in >> Django and attracting the best & brightest into our community. I think >> you'll see Kevin, that I supported your first PR but have very grave >> concerns about the second for the reasons I've already gone into great >> detail about. I do believe completely that both were put forward with good >> intentions. I'm all for policies that put forward good examples of >> appreciated behavior and add to the general sense of inclusiveness which I >> think your first one does. It scares the hell out of me when people start >> enumerating banned conduct and speech - and I wish more people understood >> the issue as well as I about why. That's why I'm quite vocal about this. >> >> Thanx for your time and interest, >> >> -- Ben Scherrey >> >> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Kevin Daum <[email protected] >> <javascript:>> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Russ, I assumed as much, having read >>> https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Perhaps Daniele's keynote talk at Djangocon this year, combined with the >>> already very good Django code of conduct, caused me to assume too much of >>> this community's progression towards appreciating both the need of >>> diversity in tech and the actual conditions required to bring that about. >>> >>> Benjamin, you asked if there is an actual problem that needs solving. >>> Yes. Absolutely. It is a systemic one within the world of software >>> development and I am excited to be a part of a particular software >>> development community that is taking proactive steps towards the goal of a >>> safe, supportive environment for *everyone *who is working towards that >>> same goal. The quality of our software will reflect the quality of our >>> community. Here is just a tiny sample of reading for any who are interested >>> in learning why these kinds of policies are so important: >>> >>> >>> 1. See the recent case of Anita Sarkeesian, which is one sort of >>> situation I have in mind when writing down a policy such as this: >>> https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1 >>> >>> >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/gaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats/ >>> 2. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/abuse-as-ddos, including this >>> bit: "Just like with computer security, you should have plans in place >>> to >>> identify and address attacks. At conferences, user groups, and other >>> events, this can take the form of a code of conduct along with a policy >>> for >>> enforcement. In workplaces, this often takes the form of an employee >>> handbook. These types of policies help mitigate attacks when they >>> happen, >>> so that decisions don’t have to be made on the fly when something goes >>> wrong. These policies are far from perfect fixes for everything, but >>> they’re better than doing nothing." >>> 3. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis. >>> By the way, I'm proud that the one time this author links to something >>> django-related, it's this situation >>> >>> <http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Django_primary-replica_terminology_patch_dispute> >>> >>> in which the core devs wisely and quickly made the right choice. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:37:16 PM UTC-4, Russell Keith-Magee wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Kevin, >>>> >>>> Thanks for these suggestions. >>>> >>>> By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little >>>> more procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change >>>> to our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a >>>> specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the >>>> core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect. >>>> >>>> Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is >>>> definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community >>>> will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not >>>> something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit. >>>> >>>> Russ %-) >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct: >>>>> >>>>> - #84 <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/84>, to >>>>> let folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that >>>>> yes, >>>>> even they are welcome here, and >>>>> - #86 <https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86>, to >>>>> make explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive >>>>> behavior >>>>> outside the django community *may* have an adverse effect on their >>>>> ability to participate within the django community. >>>>> >>>>> I welcome your feedback. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Kevin Daum >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Django developers" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ >>>>> msgid/django-developers/0633ea6c-c973-4cb0-bf94- >>>>> 60d045c608ea%40googlegroups.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/0633ea6c-c973-4cb0-bf94-60d045c608ea%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Django developers" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> <javascript:>. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/8511aebc-fef2-462c-90f4-92d6ad3337f0%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/8511aebc-fef2-462c-90f4-92d6ad3337f0%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Chief Systems Architect Proteus Technologies <http://proteus-tech.com> >> Chief Fan Biggest Fan Productions <http://biggestfan.net> >> Personal blog where I am not your demographic >> <http://notyourdemographic.com>. >> >> This email intended solely for those who have received it. 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