On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:45 PM, Simon <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> I'm a newcomer to both Python and Django and just wanted to share my
> experience trying to solve a couple of problems.
>
> When I started coding in Python a month ago, Django was sufficiently
> common in Google searches that it was my first port of call. I've found
> quite a few features which I love and a few which seem a little quirky.
>
> Unfortunately, every time I come across a problem, I seem to end up back
> at the ticket system which almost invariably results in lots of people
> saying "It's important to me" and a core developer saying (rather
> arbitrarily) "I don't see the need" and closing as wontfix.
>
> Of course, once the ticket has been closed, the only way to appeal is
> through the mailing lists. To myself as a newcomer, that just feels like a
> way of making further dissent less visible. I'm sure this isn't the case
> but that's certainly the feeling I got.
>

I'm sorry you've got this impression, but we do this to *increase*
visibility, not decrease it.

When you subscribe to the mailing list, you get *all* the messages. You get
to see *every* conversation. So if someone turns up and proposes a new
feature, everyone gets a chance to participate. However, If you post a
comment on a ticket, only the people who have posted to that ticket get
notified.

So lets say I'm a person with an interest in the behavior of Django models,
but without a specific interest in a reload behaviour. Any discussion on
ticket #901 would be completely invisible to me.

Or, lets say I *do* have an interest in reload behaviour, but I think of it
more as a "refresh" behaviour. I open a new ticket, it slips through the
triage process without being identified as a duplicate (which is
unfortunate, but very easy to do). We now have 2 difference discussions
about exactly the same thing, and neither discussion will know that the
other is happening.

So - the repeated advice to take the discussion to django-developers exists
for a very good reason, and we give that advice for the exact opposite
reason to what we've been accused of. We've been doing this for a while,
and the processes we've developed exist because of what we've learned. And
our processes are also documented:

https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.5/internals/contributing/bugs-and-features/

The most recent example, which prompted this post is
> https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/901 but this is the 5th or 6th time
> I've ended up at similar tickets with similar outcomes. I think comment
> #20 <https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/901#comment:20> demonstrates
> my point perfectly - While the point being made is valid, the tone and
> general attitude is poor to say the least.
>

As the author of that comment --  I wrote it out of abject frustration. I
saw three comments in a row, all declaring that Django was unresponsive to
user requests, when *not one person complaining has done the very simple
thing that the core team has asked them to do*. When Person A has a
problem, Person B provides a way to resolve the problem, and Person A
refuses to do what they've been asked to do, why is Person B wearing the
blame?

That said, it certainly wasn't my intention to offend with my comments, so
I apologise for my tone.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

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