@Jasper Horn, There is a lot of confusion within the FOSS community. That one does not believe your assessment is correct is understandable in light of the many who state that they are creating their software primarily for their own use, and others who say that most programmers are doing it as a hobby, else they would charge for it. In any case, I do not believe your points help our friend Andreas with his problem of perception.
The whole question boils down to the fact that the basic response is always to suggest that the user become a programmer and create a patch or improve the program another way. That shows that the software creators are not interested in do that themselves, for whatever reason. Most users do not want to become programmers, so such suggestions will always be viewed as harsh in the best light and insulting in the worst. Edheldil put is succinctly when he stated "On the other hand, it's the best FOSS general diagramming tool we have (which is sad, but that's life)." How very true, and it is the only reason that most people would even try to use it. But what is worse is that the very confusion of intent I mentioned earlier drives too many back to micro$oft. Now that is really what is sad. Further, that a web site exists is in itself evidence of being promotional. And where you wrote, "Also, keep in mind that they are doing something in their own way, and they are not necessarily wanting to do it as others may desire, since that is not their goal.", you actually are supporting my initial point as I stated to our friend. Let us not be confused about the intent of FOSS programmers. You also wrote, "Have you ever met a software company that is catering to every need of every single user?" The answer is "Yes, I have". Further I was willing to pay for that high quality software because the programmers were commercial professionals whose product success depended upon the customer's satisfaction. Again, the point speaks for itself and agrees with what my initial points were to our friend, Andreas. Sadly, that is not the point of the FOSS community. I always recommend that a person develop an understanding of the motives and standards of personal responsibility the programmers have toward their users. If it is good and long term, then paying for that is most appropriate. Those requirements are necessary to create good long-term and high quality software geared toward the user's needs; which should be the same as commercial goals. That's all. Let us not confuse the issue of free and paid. In paid, one votes with their money, and in free, one votes with their programming skills. The former is a better bet for the average user, and the latter is not a good deal for the average user at all. Just like in any other product or service, half way done is not worth anything, but finished properly is worth everything. On 09/09/2011 08:00 AM, dia-list-requ...@gnome.org wrote: > Send dia-list mailing list submissions to dia-list@gnome.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list or, via email, send a message > with subject or body > 'help' to dia-list-requ...@gnome.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at dia-list-ow...@gnome.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: > Contents of dia-list > digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things? dia-list Digest, Vol > 89, Issue 7 (Edheldil) 2. Re: > dia components (Jasper Horn) 3. Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple > things? dia-list Digest, Vol > 89, Issue 7 (Jasper Horn) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 11:00:08 +0200 From: > Edheldil<dia...@eowyn.cz> To: discussions > about usage and development of dia <dia-list@gnome.org> Subject: Re: Dia: Why > is it so hard to do > simple things? dia-list Digest, Vol 89, Issue 7 > Message-ID:<4e69d598.5010...@eowyn.cz> Content-Type: > text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 09/08/2011 11:29 PM, Michael Ross wrote: >> It is worth noting that many people like this software and work productively >> with it who did not >> write it. > > [ To nobody in particular ] > > I have been a Dia user for quite a long time, even tried to create a new tool > for it > (http://www.eowyn.cz/dia/dia-stars.png , if you are interested), so I am > certainly not a Windows user > accustomed to polishedness of Visio. > > The fact is, Dia lacks many needed features and has annoying bugs and limits. > What's worse, its > development is at best crawling at snail's pace, so the above mentioned > problems have been there for > many years. Working with Dia is often frustrating because of that. > > On the other hand, it's the best FOSS general diagramming tool we have (which > is sad, but that's > life). > > The way to make things better is to make it better yourself, in some of the > many ways open source > software permits. About the best one is sending patches, but there are others > as well - creating > content, for example. > > To make this post a bit more constructive: maybe it would be helpful to have > an ideas / wishlist / > TODO page on the wiki, something that a would-be contributor could use as a > starting point. > > Cheers, Edheldil > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 13:18:32 +0200 From: Jasper > Horn<jasperh...@gmail.com> To: > discussions about usage and development of dia <dia-list@gnome.org> Subject: > Re: dia components > Message-ID: > <cak1irg+paon-oep2bzh96+rtagln0rxurh19t0ikurq5xxv...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: > text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi Michael, > > Both your first and this version of your question have been received. > > It's just that your first question hadn't received a reply. That's not all > that strange a thing, > considering that to answer it, someone randomly needs experience with dia on > suse, which turns out > not to be the case (for people who also have non-SUSE dia anyway). It is not > something that can be > tested without having a SUSE install (as well as another install) either. > > You'd be better off asking at SUSE, perhaps even contacting the package > maintainers for the dia > package for SUSE. > > Thanks, > > Jasper > > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:00 AM, Michael Scheepers > <michael.scheep...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi, a question from a dia user perspective: >> >> Earlier this year I put together a Network diagram using the standard dia >> install on SUSE. I've >> predominantly used Visio for this purpose for some time, however I was >> really impressed with dia >> and based on my experience in this instance, resolved that dia is absolutely >> a viable alternative >> for this purpose. >> >> I subsequently replaced SUSE with Linux Mint, however the default dia >> install available in Mint is >> missing a lot of the Network elements that were available to me on SUSE. >> Contrary to my earlier >> extremely positive experience on SUSE, the small handful of "missing" >> network elements on Mint >> unfortunately prevent dia from even being an option for producing Network >> diagrams via the Mint >> platform. >> >> I checked and both SUSE and MINT had the same version of dia (0.9.7 if I >> recall correctly but I may >> be mistaken). >> >> Can anyone shed some light on why the? same version of dia would have a >> different set of elements >> to choose from, when installed on two different Linux distributions? >> >> And more importantly, can anyone advise on how I can correct this problem on >> Mint and get access to >> the "missing" dia elements? >> >> _______________________________________________ dia-list mailing list >> dia-list@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list FAQ at >> http://live.gnome.org/Dia/Faq Main page at >> http://live.gnome.org/Dia >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 13:37:44 +0200 From: Jasper > Horn<jasperh...@gmail.com> To: > discussions about usage and development of dia <dia-list@gnome.org> Subject: > Re: Dia: Why is it so > hard to do simple things? dia-list Digest, Vol 89, Issue 7 Message-ID: > <CAK1irgLaux_iWP_PU_Td0ohStiLUj5+xy7CzbuprDycYDe=g...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Tech Support Department wrote: >> Friend, I understand and share in your frustration. ?As far as I can >> understand it, the majority of >> the free and open source software (FOSS) community is just creating software >> to serve their own >> needs. ?That others may use it is besides the point. > > You are mistaken. There is very little FOSS software that is created without > the fact that others > will use it in mind. User interfaces may not always be as sophisticated, but > they are made so people > in general can use the software. Sure, sometimes features are included > because a developer is needing > that feature, but that is no less than logical. After all, they are using > the program and they are > not getting paid for making it. If you miss a certain feature, you are free > to do the same and add it > yourself. > >> Their web site's existence is evidently not a promotion of the product for >> others to use. > > There are two things at work here. > > First, there is the fact that indeed, the website is not promotional > material. They do not need as > many users as possible in order to make more money, so they do not have a > website made to attract new > users. > > Secondly, nobody is paid to maintain the website. That means that the website > isn't always up to > date, complete and all that. That's too bad, really, but it is the hard > reality of things here. It is > typically also one of those things you could be helping out with yourself, > even if you do not know > how to program. > >> Also, keep in mind that they are doing something in their own way, and they >> are not necessarily >> wanting to do it as others may desire, since that is not their goal. > > Have you ever met a software company that is catering to every need of every > single user? And now you > expect people who are doing this without getting paid to do just that? As > actually, you are saying > that because your wishes weren't what the project did. Sure, paid projects > may cater to the masses > more, but they are getting paid. And often this is not even a problem of them > not wanting to do it as > you want to see it, but just the fact that other things may have a higher > priority and they can't > just hire an extra programmer on an open source project... > > Thanks, > > Jasper > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ dia-list mailing list > dia-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list > > > End of dia-list Digest, Vol 89, Issue 10 > **************************************** > > _______________________________________________ dia-list mailing list dia-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list FAQ at http://live.gnome.org/Dia/Faq Main page at http://live.gnome.org/Dia
