Hello,
So as I've promised I will express my opinions on the meeting and what
was said there on the mailing list.
So first of all second meeting point was supposed to be about taking
steps to solve the conflict proposed in my mail:
http://wklej.org/id/1369055/
I've chosen to be silent, because I wanted to hear what others including
Jolla have to say on that matter and if that proposal is at all
acceptable for them. Unfortunately discussion turned into something
different, that seems to me like a witch-hunt made by Jolla employees
who were dominating the meeting. Below are full logs so everyone can
have their own opinion on that:
http://www.merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-05-22-10.00.log.html
So first of all I had full right to stay silent at the meeting and they
should have respected that. Somehow others respect that Thomas Perl is
silent all the time, but when it comes to others that want to be silent
for a while they fail that pretty simple test and try to force speaking.
Double moral standards?
Now to the points raised by Stefano. During the last days I had a chance
to exchange lots of mails with Stefano and answer his questions. Sadly
it seems it was a waste of time as he did not get anything from it right.
Anyway regarding the points raised by Jolla employees:
*1*. Stefano Mosconi (Jolla): Let's keep those discussions out of the
mailing list
My answer:
That is truly open approach to remove any uncomfortable topic, that seem
to important to at least some part of the community. Seems like the
story with dust under the carpet is still valid.
*2*. Philippe de Swert (Jolla): As there is no point discussing this if
the main person involved is not willing to discuss
My answer:
Well there was clear proposal sent on the mailing list, but nobody
wanted to seriosuly discuss or comment it
*3* Denis Zalevskiy (as a private person): each Jolla employee is a
private person and talks as a private person unless said he represents
Jolla, so his intereaction with other people is personal
My answer:
Jolla guidelines [1] tell different story. It enough if person is on
offcial Jolla communication channel (that includes Together) where
Thomas mentioned about hack event in Vienna, from which he tried later
to exclude me
*4* Jarko Vihriala (Jolla), about me being silent: We have other
responsibilities apart from this meeting as well. I don't think fk_lx 's
current behavior is at any way acceptable.
My answer:
But Thomas Perl silence on this matter is completely acceptable?
*5* Stefano Mosconi (Jolla) commenting discrimination/abuse problem:
Event mentioned in this case is organized by Metalab, not Jolla. fk_lx
claimed that Jolla is discriminating against him. From related chat logs
and posts, it can be shown that this isn't the case. Conclusion from Jolla:
*a)* Jolla as a company has nothing to do with it this issue
My answer:
Yes, nothing at all, besides tolerating it
*b)* there is no trace that thp has requested Filip to be excluded he
just said that if Filip is coming he is not and in saying
My answer:
19:47 < thp> the meetups are in general open to everyone, but fk_lx is
excluded and specifically NOT invited for very good reasons.
see logs: http://wklej.org/hash/8ede3d7b136/
*c)* thp has reasons to avoid Filip and Filip seems to know why and
acknowledged that in his mail
My answer:
I left the mail story for the end of this e-mail. Too bad Stefano you
haven't understood at all
*d)* no abuse or discrimination was done by thp, Carsten or any other
Jolla employee towards Filip
My answer:
I tend to disagree, see my first post in the thread:
*e)* Jolla did not ignore Filip nor his emails at the time
My answer:
What about e-mail from December that was ignored for months? What about
promises to answer by 25th/27th of April and failing that? And from the
above point we can get another information, that previously me or my
e-mail were ignored
*6* Stefano Mosconi (Jolla): Also (iekku gave me permission to share
this) iekku which is the person behind dev care went on a long sick
leave at the beginning of the year and this has affected all the answers
to dev-care
My answer:
The mail was sent on 9th December, so before 2014 started. Moreover
Iekku Pylkkä appologized me that someone's sick leave shouldn't be a
reason to not have community guidlines for handling such cases. It's
also worth to ask if someone sick leave is a reason for Jolla Developer
Care to not answer mails for 5 months (December, January, February,
March, then answer is promised to be sent till 25th/27th of April, but
"any" answer, but not regarding the December problem but April one
arrived on 5th of May). I'm all for publishing all e-mails and responses
that were between me and Jolla care (also from Iekku e-mail speaking as
Jolla Dev Care), so we will have proper chronology and content of messages.
*8* Stefano Mosconi (Jolla): I have approached the case _very_ seriously
and talked extensively with Filip
to understand his concerns I asked as many questions as I could and
dedicated to him plenty of my time
My answer:
I tend to disagree, content of your mails contradict with that. I appeal
you to publish them so everyone can see your serious approach - I will
publish mine part.
*9* Stephan Beyerle (community): fk_lx being silent here and his threat
to contact preess about his case makes me wonder if his goal is just
plain revenge and making as much damage to jolla and thp as he can.
fk_lx please speak up. I hoped he would solve it here today, but it
seems he is not interested.
My answer:
Dear Stephan - if I am harmed I have full right to go with it to any
mass media and press simple as that - it's not a threat it's just
looking for justice. Notice that I've *first* informed press, then told
about it on IRC/mailing list, so sorry it's not a threat nor a
blackmail. Jolla has perfect right to contact the same media, clarify
things and if Jolla sees something that is not truth in that media they
can sue them for spreading slander/libel.
*10* Carol Chen (Jolla): I think we have given enough time on this topic
and provided a chance for fk_lx to address this, which he did not take
My answer:
The topic was about my proposal
*11* Robin Burchell (Jolla): You cannot force private people to like
each other, or communicate
My answer:
I totally agree with you that you cannot force anyone, but I will say if
Thomas Perl doesn't want to talk directly or answers questions as Jolla
employee there are different ways to solve that (there could be some
proxy in a company, or someone else designated to answer those
questions). But at the same time company discriminating clients is
violation of consumer laws. Just like you wouldn't want to sell
something to somebody for personal reasons.
*12* Andrea Bernabei (community member, ex-intern at Jolla, talking
about Thomas Perl not answering Python questions): NSA-rep, he only
answered after other people asked (maybe it was me re-asking as
well)...this is not doable
My answer:
Totally agree, thanks for courage to state that. In the long run you
won't have to be ashamed when looking at yourself in the mirror.
*13* Andrea Bernabei (community member, ex-intern at Jolla, answering
Stefano to question if he seen thp action as malice):
stezz, w00t I'd just hope I'd always get my answer replied by someone
wearing a Jolla hat, thp can perfectly ignore personal questions and
only reply to technical ones, it should be fairly easy to tell one from
the other (and it seems other people agree)
My answer:
Totally agree. Wise words and once again thanks for the civil courage to
tell that.
*14* Carsten Munk (Jolla, commenting Andrea answer from *13*): The real
problem comes from that it can't be seen if it's done maliciously, or
out of genuine interest -- and thp is helping with other questions
My answer: yes Thomas Perl is helping with other questions asked by
other people without no doubt. But is it ok to not answer technical
questions from personal reasons? I see it as discrimination
*15* Robin Burchell (Jolla): you cannot force people to communicate.
knowing thomas, i would assume that if he is ignoring a person
completely, he is doing so for a very good reason
My answer: maybe you don't know Thomas enough from all the sides,
including dark ones?
**16** My answer to Stefano Mosconi posting my mail from December with
appologies and my tweet from that time:
Stefano I've explained that in my private mails to you few times, so I
will paste it here along with other relevant parts (as I am author of
those):
"Sorry, but I disagree with that opinion. I must admit Carsten tried to
solve the problem and shown some goodwill. Of course methods he has
chosen were inappropriate - psychomanipulation through guilt trip is the
worst way to solve problems, any psychologist/psychotherapist will tell
you that."
"Moreover if I were him, when he got employed, knowing that there is a
guy Filip in the community who really is passionate about Jolla (and
Thomas knew very well how Jolla was important for me) I would do all to
not give even a smallest reason for Filip to feel discriminated or
excluded."
"Through all that time Jolla didn't care to find a good, non-harming
solution. Well, how do you think a solution can be made, when you don't
talk seriously with one side of the conflict? Who talked with me? I was
sending mails and no one was asking at all what kind of solution could
be made, how I feel about certain things and what could be the end of
this conflict. Not a single such question."
"I like this community and it's my choice whether I stay or not and
please respect that. I don't like what Jolla is doing in this certain
case - you are free to fix the problem - it's your company, you invested
money, time and your heart to it. Just like I've invested my heart, time
and money in this community. "
"It does good to me - I feel now free to express myself, not thinking
whole the time what Carsten will think what I'm doing, whether he will
be satisfied or not. *I'm not under his control anymore*.
I see it also as justice, justice I was waiting for months. Now I can
speak freely and tell everyone what was happening and what harm I've
experienced. I believed I won't have to do that, but Jolla
underestimated the whole problem and failed to fix it."
"As I said read the mail I've gave you link to on beginning once again
and the private one I've sent you on Friday. There is clear explanation
why the mail from December you and Thomas Perl is showing has no value.
It's the same like you would put a gun to someone's head and told him to
write appologies. That mental gun was hold by Carsten. He is a mature
person, he knew what he was doing, he knew very well in what state I was
in December, but it didn't stop him from psychomanipulating and putting
pressure on me at that time. I wanted jump out of window, that's how I
felt about it. What is happening now is a result of what happened later
and how your company handled (or rather not handled at all) the whole
problem. "
"You have full right to have your own opinion, just like many people
have completely opposite to yours. I believe that covering Thomas Perl
is really not worth the price in terms of your company losing good image
in large part of community, but it's only my opinion, with which you can
disagree."
"I've told you that I've written what Carsten expected me to write,
that's the kind of "truth" he wanted to hear and was squeezing into me
earlier, but it wasn't the real truth. I was unfair to myself by writing
such mail, but Carsten and Jolla were very important to me at that time,
so I've sacrificed my own dignity for pleasing Carsten and for what I've
perceived as good for Jolla (nowadays I think it was a big mistake). I
would say why Carsten was doing it, but it's connected with his much
earlier past and those are things he told me in confidence, so I don't
have right to tell you about it and you won't force me to tell that."
"So summing up - Carsten as much as Jolla was very important to me at
that time, so I was desperate to write anything. I'm sorry that you
can't understand that simple reason of writing that mail and you keep
sticking to it."
"I know that from what he was saying to me all the time before I wrote
that mail and what was his opinion on the whole topic. Though, now I'm
quite certain that his opinions were biased by his past. I think that
most of the time he had good intentions and wanted what he perceived as
good for me, but that way I would have to resign from being myself and
focus on pleasing him and doing what he wants, no matter if I think if
it's good for me or not. That's not worth it - been on that path and I
don't want to return to it."
"I wish your company good and I think it still has a time to change, but
I won't agree to any sort of abuse or discrimination and your company
tolerating that. It's the same like with debexpert case."
"imagine that when person is saying multiple times in private
conversations through long time "That you are in my opinion doing X and
you should do Y and Z" in other words judges you and tells you what you
should do, then at one point that person suddenly completely cuts off
from you (stops responding on IRC, mail, drops your students he was
mentoring), because you have a different opinion on what he repeated all
the time and you don't do all the things he wanted you to do. Then later
(on 14th December) sends you an e-mail which clearly suggests why he is
doing that (cutting off). If you care very much about contact with that
person, who is important at Jolla, who consults your students MSc
thesis, who was making tempting visions of your future career at Jolla
earlier, then what do you do? I wrote an e-mail where I fallen to the
ground and took the whole blame on myself despite the conflict with
Thomas was never black-and-white and I've received a lot of
non-proportional harm from Thomas (told you about some of that). Carsten
pumped whole the time to my brain that I'm fully guilty for everything.
Why? The answer is in his past."
"From a perspective of time I can say that writing that mail in December
and taking the whole blame on myself was one of the biggest mistakes."
"as I've said I don't have any right to talk about it as Carsten told me
that in full confidence."
"As far as Thomas is concerned, the story seems to be easier. The whole
conflict overgrown himself and as a result he closed inside, hoping that
escaping and avoiding will be the ultimate solution of the problem, with
occasional counterattack if (intentionally or not) I get too close to
his trenches. It's like first he did harm and then he runs off to mum to
tell her that bad Filip wants to hurt him and he is a poor victim. Doing
harm wasn't my intention (of course I had moments of weakness, but in
the end I didn't wish him bad and I haven't crossed some borders, he
crossed - as I've said I've neither called him names or sent threats,
which in contrast he did to me)."
"If you ask me it is completely enough that Jolla will solve the part
connected with discrimination and abuse, will promise to not ignore such
problems in future and compensate the harm that was made to me (I'm
talking about the harm connected with Thomas as Jolla employee, not the
harm he was doing to me privately and as a compensation I don't mean
money, because I don't need that at all - it's mostly about moral
compensation and harm that was done to me as a community member). If
Thomas will be willing also to solve the private part of the problem
(which I would say considering my goodwill wouldn't be a problem),
that's even better, but it's completely up to him and not required at
all - Jolla shouldn't push or force him to anything - he is a mature
person and as every person should be respected and treated in the proper
way. "
"Choice what to do is on Jolla side. As I've stated many times before I
won't tolerate discrimination and abuse in community/company context
from any Jolla employee, whether it will be Thomas or anybody else from
your company. That also includes any other person from community that
your company will decide to discriminate or abuse."
"Writing those words was purely my decision, but done under pressure
I've told you about - if you cannot understand or agree with that it's
completely fine, you are free to do that. I advise you to get to know
about Brendan Eich case in Mozilla - he resigned, but wasn't his
resignation made under pressure of his company and some of LGBT groups
that wanted him to resign and were shouting to boycott Mozilla products.
Also see Github case and how it ended, who resigned and who was thrown
out in the end."
"Yes, Carsten said to me why he is doing it, he said many times that he
cared about me and he wants to help me. So I have serious base and
reasons to believe his intentions were good, like I've stated."
"Harm was from both sides and it if you are asking it wasn't a physical
harm. "
"I will repeat once again - insults, threats, discrimination (that also
include discrimination outside Jolla projects)"
"People judge that based on what they see and everyone has right to have
their own opinion on the matter. Those people are your clients and
community, you are free to ignore them. I will tell you something
Stefano. Few months ago I took the liberty and read your blog, post by
post right from the start to try to better understand what kind of
person you are, learn about your views and some part of your past you
describe, to better understand decision behind Jolla's management. That
was a very interesting lecture to read and yes I've made some
_assumptions_ and conclusions from that. What I've found that you are a
guy that well understands corporate life and how business works, but
doesn't seem to fully understand the community (which knowing how
community can be important in businesses these days is a pity). Well and
I admit it's hard to blame as you didn't came just like Marc Dillon from
the community background. That's why you both have problems
understanding people in community and when for example Khertan writes
about simcard problem and reboots, then someone asks Marc if he confirms
that, Marc says "Some people will always complain", many people,
including those of company were outraged by such response of Marc. Have
you thought why Zogg is so much criticizing Jolla, have you thought you
have something to do it? Do you remember Michael Hasselman from Malit
project? Have you noticed he left? Do you have an idea why he left? Have
you been on this or last year FOSDEM, have you talked with people what
they think about Jolla? Do you know why some of them already left to
Tizen community? I know, because I've talked with them about reasons for
their decisions..."
"Now read carefully (maybe even few times) what Saija has written on
sailfish-devel mailing list, her mail is very wise and a key to
understanding."
"I will give you a friendly advice - If you (and your coworkers) will
treat the whole thing that is happening as a war and me as a Jolla enemy
that you need to defeat, then I'm afraid you will lose a lot and I would
say the stake is high - image of your company, and in the worst case
result maybe even its existence. Do you want that? Do you want your and
many of your friends dreams to fade away? Believe me or not, but many
supporters will massively leave seeing your company's behavior to
continue. I would gladly help your company to get out of this whole mess
if you will cooperate to solve this problem. You can still get out with
face from it, showing that you are a good manager. Choice is yours."
"Your reply (...) has convinced me that you are probably boiling in the
hot water - you are driven by a strong emotions. Sorry, but I don't feel
a need to answer your mails anymore.
Now if you have civil courage Stefano publish to all of us what you were
writing in your mails.
Regards,
Filip
[1]
https://together.jolla.com/question/39552/what-is-the-participation-and-contribution-policy-for-jollas-open-source-contributors-in-open-source-projects/
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