On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 11:08 AM Aleksandar Kurtakov <akurt...@redhat.com> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 5:54 PM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel > <devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote: >> >> On 10.09.2020 16:10, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: >> > Flatpak is way better suited for our use case and in addition gives us >> > access to a way bigger install base. >> >> Flathub is a third-party repository and not related to Fedora at all. >> >> >> > And the involvement on Java packaging in Fedora is so low that we >> > literally have to maintain whole other stacks including jetty, lucene and >> > etc. - not feasible work in any way. >> >> Fedora Modularity team destroyed the entire Java stack in Fedora after >> moving ant/maven to modules. > > > As I've been involved in ant/maven packaging for a decade or so I would dare > to say that this is not the truth. It just exposed the fact that less and > less people were actively maintaining things as most of the people that used > to do it moved on to other things and the number of new people that joined is > quite low. So the burden on people left is bigger and bigger.
I am a relative newcomer to RPM packaging. I became a packager because I was a long-time Fedora user, and wanted to distribute my Java packages in Fedora. I began packaging, and slowly began taking over a few related packages, until the entire stack fell out from under me because of modularity. Had it been kept alive non-modular, I'd have been able to encourage others to participate (I had already recruited one other from $dayjob to help comaintain Java packages and was in the process of recruiting more when modularity became a thing), and I would have been able to participate more and more. However, because everything fell apart, I was not able to do that. So, from my perspective, it did both: it exposed that less and less people were actively maintaining things *and* it destroyed the entire Java stack by making it *harder* for newcomers like me to actively maintain things that were becoming out of date. As an Apache Software Foundation member, I really appreciate their "community first" mindset. One of their driving principles is that having a good community enables code to get better... prioritizing code or technologies does not necessary enable community. I feel like Fedora's modularity efforts, while good intentioned, from a technology perspectve, were a net negative in terms of community because it raised the bar to participation and prioritized a design over the effects on the community. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I also see the modular versions of Maven/Ant as being worthless (to me). I used to use the non-modular Maven RPM for my development, but now that it is modular only, I find that it's actually better to just download the binaries directly from Apache, because the experience is better than using modules. They are more up-to-date, break less often, and it requires me to do fewer steps to keep up-to-date. The convenience of using the stable RPM in non-modular Fedora is now gone for me, as soon as it became a module. I wish I could say that modularity didn't have a negative impact... and that it was a complete success, and that all fault (especially that pertaining to the Java stack) is elsewhere, but I can't honestly say I believe that. It would merely be wishful thinking on my part. > >> >> >> I think FESCo should completely forbid modules without packaged >> non-modular versions. >> >> >> -- >> Sincerely, >> Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) >> _______________________________________________ >> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org >> Fedora Code of Conduct: >> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ >> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines >> List Archives: >> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > > > > -- > Alexander Kurtakov > Red Hat Eclipse Team > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
