Damn, I always thought that mailing list is only for nice and welcoming people and there is nothing to do for me here >:)
To be serious though, there are many questions on the users list which would fit just fine on SO but it is not true in general. There are dozens of questions which are to broad, opinion based, ask for external resources and so on. If you want to direct users to SO you have to help them to decide if it is the right channel. Otherwise it will just create a really bad experience for both seeking help and active answerers. Former ones will be downvoted and bashed, latter ones will have to deal with handling all the junk and the number of active Spark users with moderation privileges is really low (with only Massg and me being able to directly close duplicates). Believe me, I've seen this before. On 11/07/2016 05:08 AM, Reynold Xin wrote: > You have substantially underestimated how opinionated people can be on > mailing lists too :) > > On Sunday, November 6, 2016, Maciej Szymkiewicz > <mszymkiew...@gmail.com <mailto:mszymkiew...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > You have to remember that Stack Overflow crowd (like me) is highly > opinionated, so many questions, which could be just fine on the > mailing list, will be quickly downvoted and / or closed as > off-topic. Just saying... > > -- > Best, > Maciej > > > On 11/07/2016 04:03 AM, Reynold Xin wrote: >> OK I've checked on the ASF member list (which is private so there >> is no public archive). >> >> It is not against any ASF rule to recommend StackOverflow as a >> place for users to ask questions. I don't think we can or should >> delete the existing user@spark list either, but we can certainly >> make SO more visible than it is. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Reynold Xin <r...@databricks.com >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','r...@databricks.com');>> wrote: >> >> Actually after talking with more ASF members, I believe the >> only policy is that development decisions have to be made and >> announced on ASF properties (dev list or jira), but user >> questions don't have to. >> >> I'm going to double check this. If it is true, I would >> actually recommend us moving entirely over the Q&A part of >> the user list to stackoverflow, or at least make that the >> recommended way rather than the existing user list which is >> not very scalable. >> >> >> On Wednesday, November 2, 2016, Nicholas Chammas >> <nicholas.cham...@gmail.com >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nicholas.cham...@gmail.com');>> >> wrote: >> >> We’ve discussed several times upgrading our communication >> tools, as far back as 2014 and maybe even before that >> too. The bottom line is that we can’t due to ASF rules >> requiring the use of ASF-managed mailing lists. >> >> For some history, see this discussion: >> >> * >> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oy5no2dhwj_kveop...@mail.gmail.com%3E >> >> <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oy5no2dhwj_kveop...@mail.gmail.com%3E> >> * >> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=tktxy_...@mail.gmail.com%3E >> >> <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=tktxy_...@mail.gmail.com%3E> >> >> (It’s ironic that it’s difficult to follow the past >> discussion on why we can’t change our official >> communication tools due to those very tools…) >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:24 PM Ricardo Almeida >> <ricardo.alme...@actnowib.com> wrote: >> >> I fell Assaf point is quite relevant if we want to >> move this project forward from the Spark user >> perspective (as I do). In fact, we're still using >> 20th century tools (mailing lists) with some add-ons >> (like Stack Overflow). >> >> As usually, Sean and Cody's contributions are very to >> the point. >> I fell it is indeed a matter of of culture (hard to >> enforce) and tools (much easier). Isn't it? >> >> On 2 November 2016 at 16:36, Cody Koeninger >> <c...@koeninger.org> wrote: >> >> So concrete things people could do >> >> - users could tag subject lines appropriately to >> the component they're >> asking about >> >> - contributors could monitor user@ for tags >> relating to components >> they've worked on. >> I'd be surprised if my miss rate for any mailing >> list questions >> well-labeled as Kafka was higher than 5% >> >> - committers could be more aggressive about >> soliciting and merging PRs >> to improve documentation. >> It's a lot easier to answer even poorly-asked >> questions with a link to >> relevant docs. >> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 7:39 AM, Sean Owen >> <so...@cloudera.com> wrote: >> > There's already reviews@ and issues@. dev@ is >> for project development itself >> > and I think is OK. You're suggesting splitting >> up user@ and I sympathize >> > with the motivation. Experience tells me that >> we'll have a beginner@ that's >> > then totally ignored, and people will quickly >> learn to post to advanced@ to >> > get attention, and we'll be back where we >> started. Putting it in JIRA >> > doesn't help. I don't think this a problem that >> is merely down to lack of >> > process. It actually requires cultivating a >> culture change on the community >> > list. >> > >> > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:11 PM Mendelson, >> Assaf <assaf.mendel...@rsa.com> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> What I am suggesting is basically to fix that. >> >> >> >> For example, we might say that mailing list A >> is only for voting, mailing >> >> list B is only for PR and have something like >> stack overflow for developer >> >> questions (I would even go as far as to have >> beginner, intermediate and >> >> advanced mailing list for users and >> beginner/advanced for dev). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This can easily be done using stack overflow >> tags, however, that would >> >> probably be harder to manage. >> >> >> >> Maybe using special jira tags and manage it in >> jira? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyway as I said, the main issue is not user >> questions (except maybe >> >> advanced ones) but more for dev questions. It >> is so easy to get lost in the >> >> chatter that it makes it very hard for people >> to learn spark internals… >> >> >> >> Assaf. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Sean Owen [mailto:so...@cloudera.com] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 2:07 PM >> >> To: Mendelson, Assaf; dev@spark.apache.org >> >> Subject: Re: Handling questions in the mailing >> lists >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I think that unfortunately mailing lists don't >> scale well. This one has >> >> thousands of subscribers with different >> interests and levels of experience. >> >> For any given person, most messages will be >> irrelevant. I also find that a >> >> lot of questions on user@ are not well-asked, >> aren't an SSCCE >> >> (http://sscce.org/), not something most people >> are going to bother replying >> >> to even if they could answer. I almost >> entirely ignore user@ because there >> >> are higher-priority channels like PRs to deal >> with, that already have >> >> hundreds of messages per day. This is why >> little of it gets an answer -- too >> >> noisy. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We have to have official mailing lists, in any >> event, to have some >> >> official channel for things like votes and >> announcements. It's not wrong to >> >> ask questions on user@ of course, but a lot of >> the questions I see could >> >> have been answered with research of existing >> docs or looking at the code. I >> >> think that given the scale of the list, it's >> not wrong to assert that this >> >> is sort of a prerequisite for asking thousands >> of people to answer one's >> >> question. But we can't enforce that. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The situation will get better to the extent >> people ask better questions, >> >> help other people ask better questions, and >> answer good questions. I'd >> >> encourage anyone feeling this way to try to >> help along those dimensions. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 11:32 AM >> assaf.mendelson <assaf.mendel...@rsa.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I know this is a little off topic but I wanted >> to raise an issue about >> >> handling questions in the mailing list (this >> is true both for the user >> >> mailing list and the dev but since there are >> other options such as stack >> >> overflow for user questions, this is more >> problematic in dev). >> >> >> >> Let’s say I ask a question (as I recently >> did). Unfortunately this was >> >> during spark summit in Europe so probably >> people were busy. In any case no >> >> one answered. >> >> >> >> The problem is, that if no one answers very >> soon, the question will almost >> >> certainly remain unanswered because new >> messages will simply drown it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This is a common issue not just for questions >> but for any comment or idea >> >> which is not immediately picked up. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I believe we should have a method of handling >> this. >> >> >> >> Generally, I would say these types of things >> belong in stack overflow, >> >> after all, the way it is built is perfect for >> this. More seasoned spark >> >> contributors and committers can periodically >> check out unanswered questions >> >> and answer them. >> >> >> >> The problem is that stack overflow (as well as >> other targets such as the >> >> databricks forums) tend to have a more user >> based orientation. This means >> >> that any spark internal question will almost >> certainly remain unanswered. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I was wondering if we could come up with a >> solution for this. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Assaf. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> >> View this message in context: Handling >> questions in the mailing lists >> >> Sent from the Apache Spark Developers List >> mailing list archive at >> >> Nabble.com. >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe e-mail: >> dev-unsubscr...@spark.apache.org >> >> >> >
