Hi again, Rajini. It occurs to me that from a *behavior* perspective there are really 3 fundamental differences between the low-level approach you provided and the high-level approach as it currently exists in the PR:
1) *When re-authentication starts*. The low-level approach initiates re-authentication only if/when the connection is actually used, so it may start after the existing credential expires; the current PR implementation injects re-authentication requests into the existing flow, and re-authentication starts immediately regardless of whether or not the connection is being used for something else. 2) *When requests not related to re-authentication can use the re-authenticating connection*. The low-level approach finishes re-authentication completely before allowing anything else to travers the connection; the current PR implementation interleaves re-authentication requests with existing flow requests. 3) *What happens if re-authentication fails*. The low-level approach results in a closed connection and does not support retries -- at least as currently implemented; the current PR implementation supports retries. Do you agree that these are the (only?) behavioral differences? For these facets of behavior, I wonder what the requirements are for this feature. I think they are as follows: 1) *When re-authentication starts*: I don't think we have a hard requirement here when considered in isolation -- whether re-authentication starts immediately or is delayed until the connection is used probably doesn't matter. 2) *When requests not related to re-authentication can use the re-authenticating connection*: there is a tradeoff here between latency and ability to debug re-authentication problems. Delaying use of the connection until re-authentication finishes results in bigger latency spikes but keeps re-authentication requests somewhat together; interleaving minimizes the size of individual latency spikes but adds some separation between the requests. 3) *What happens if re-authentication fails*: I believe we have a clear requirement for retry capability given what I have written previously. Do you agree? Note that while the current low-level implementation does not support retry, I have been thinking about how that can be done, and I am pretty sure it can be. We can keep the old authenticators on the client and server sides and put them back into place if the re-authentication fails; we would also have to make sure the server side doesn't delay any failed re-authentication result and also doesn't close the connection upon re-authentication failure. I think I see how to do all of that. There are some interactions between the above requirements. If re-authentication can't start immediately and has to wait for the connection to be used then that precludes interleaving because we can't be sure that the credential will be active by the time it is used -- if it isn't active, and we allow interleaving, then requests not related to re-authentication will fail if server-side connection-close-due-to-expired-credential functionality is in place. Also note that any such server-side connection-close-due-to-expired-credential functionality would likely have to avoid closing a connection until it is used for anything other than re-authentication -- it must allow re-authentication requests through when the credential is expired. Given all of the above, it feels to me like the low-level solution is viable only under the following conditions: 1) We must accept a delay in when re-authentication occurs to when the connection is used 2) We must accept the bigger latency spikes associated with not interleaving requests Does this sound right to you, and if so, do you find these conditions acceptable? Or have I missed something and/or made incorrect assumptions somewhere? Ron On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 5:19 PM Ron Dagostino <rndg...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Rajini. The code really helped me to understand what you were thinking > -- thanks. I'm still digesting, but here are some quick observations: > > Your approach (I'll call it the "low-level" approach, as compared to the > existing PR, which works at a higher level of abstraction) -- the low-level > approach is certainly intriguing. The smaller code size is welcome, of > course, as is the fact that re-authentication simply works for everyone > regardless of the style of use (async vs. sync I/O). > > I did notice that re-authentication of the connection starts only if/when > the client uses the connection. For example, if I run a console producer, > re-authentication does not happen unless I try to produce something. On > the one hand this is potentially good -- if the client isn't using the > connection then the connection stays "silent" and could be closed on the > server side if it stays idle long enough -- whereas if we start injecting > re-authentication requests (as is done in the high-level approach) then the > connection never goes completely silent and could (?) potentially avoid > being closed due to idleness. > > However, if we implement sever-side kill of connections using expired > credentials (which we agree is needed), then we might end up with the > broker killing connections that are sitting idle for only a short period of > time. For example, if we refresh the token on the client side and tell the > connection that it is eligible to be re-authenticated, then it is > conceivable that the connection might be sitting idle at that point and > might not be used until after the token it is currently using expires. The > server might kill the connection, and that would force the client to > re-connect with a new connection (requiring TLS negotiation). The > probability of this happening increases as the token lifetime decreases, of > course, and it can be offset by decreasing the window factor (i.e. make it > eligible for re-authenticate at 50% of the lifetime rather than 80%, for > example -- it would have to sit idle for longer before the server tried to > kill it). We haven't implemented server-side kill yet, so maybe we could > make it intelligent and only kill the connection if it is used (for > anything except re-authentication) after the expiration time... > > I also wonder about the ability to add retry into the low-level approach. > Do you think it would be possible? It doesn't seem like it to me -- at > least not without some big changes that would eliminate some of the > advantage of being able to reuse the existing authentication code. The > reason I ask is because I think retry is necessary. It is part of how > refreshes work for both GSSAPI and OAUTHBEARER -- they refresh based on > some window factor (i.e. 80%) and implement periodic retry upon failure so > that they can maximize the chances of having a new credential available for > any new connection attempt. Without refresh we could end up in the > situation where the connection still has some lifetime left (10%, 20%, or > whatever) but it tries to re-authenticate and cannot through no fault of > its own (i.e. token endpoint down, some Kerberos failure, etc.) -=- the > connection is closed at that point, and it is then unable to reconnect > because of the same temporary problem. We could end up with an especially > ill-timed, temporary outage in some non-Kafka system (related to OAuth or > Kerberos, or some LDAP directory) causing all clients to be kicked off the > cluster. Retry capability seems to me to be the way to mitigate this risk. > > Anyway, that's it for now. I really like the approach you outlined -- at > least at this point based on my current understanding. I will continue to > dig in, and I may send more comments/questions. But for now, I think the > lack of retry -- and my definitely-could-be-wrong sense that it can't > easily be added -- is my biggest concern with this low-level approach. > > Ron > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 4:57 PM Rajini Sivaram <rajinisiva...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi Ron, >> >> The commit >> >> https://github.com/rajinisivaram/kafka/commit/b9d711907ad843c11d17e80d6743bfb1d4e3f3fd >> shows >> the kind of flow I was thinking of. It is just a prototype with a fixed >> re-authentication period to explore the possibility of implementing >> re-authentication similar to authentication. There will be edge cases to >> cover and errors to handle, but hopefully the code makes the approach >> clearer than my earlier explanation! >> >> So the differences in the two implementations as you have already >> mentioned >> earlier. >> >> 1. Re-authentication sequences are not interleaved with Kafka requests. >> As you said, this has a higher impact on latency. IMO, this also makes >> it >> easier to debug, especially with complex protocols like Kerberos which >> are >> notoriously difficult to diagnose. >> 2. Re-authentication failures will not be retried, they will be treated >> as fatal errors similar to authentication failures. IMO, since we rely >> on >> brokers never rejecting valid authentication requests (clients treat >> authentication failures as fatal errors), it is ok to fail on >> re-authentication failure as well. >> 3. Re-authentication is performed on the network thread on brokers >> similar to authentication (in your implementation, I think it would be >> on >> the request thread). IMO, it is better do all authentications using the >> same thread pool. >> 4. Code complexity: I don't think actual code complexity would be very >> different between the two implementations. But I think there is value >> in >> keeping re-authentication code within existing network/security >> layers. The >> number of classes modified will be smaller and the number of packages >> modified even smaller. >> >> Anyway, let me know what you think: >> >> - Will this approach work for your scenarios? >> - Do we really need to handle re-authentication differently from >> authentication? >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:40 PM, Ron Dagostino <rndg...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Yeah, regarding ControllerChannelManager, it is one of the synchronous >> I/O >> > use cases (along with 2 others: KafkaProducer, via Sender; and >> > ReplicaFetcherBlockingSend, via ReplicaFetcherThread) where the >> assumption >> > is complete ownership of the connection. The PR's approach to dealing >> with >> > that assumption is to inject the re-authentication requests into the >> > owner's existing flow so that they are simply sent with a callback that >> > NetworkClient executes. The alternative approach, which is what I think >> > you are investigating, is to allow the connection to be temporarily >> taken >> > offline and having any attempt by ControllerChannelManager (or other >> > synchronous use case owner) to use the connection while it is in this >> > "offline" state result in some kind of pause until the connection comes >> > back online. One issue with this approach might be the length of time >> that >> > the connection is unavailable; will it be offline for all authentication >> > requests and responses (ApiVersionsRequest/Response, >> > SaslHandshakeRequest/Response, and SaslAuthenticateRequest/Response)? >> > Note >> > the last one could actually be invoked multiple times, so there could >> be 4 >> > or more round-trips before the authentication "dance" is finished. Will >> > the connection be "offline" the entire time, or will it be placed back >> > "online" in between each request/response pair to allow the owner of the >> > connection to use it -- in which case the authentication process would >> have >> > to wait to get ownership again? The approach I took interleaves the >> > authentication requests/responses with whatever the owner is doing, so >> it >> > is conceivable that use of the connection jumps back and forth between >> the >> > two purposes. Such jumping back and forth minimizes any added latency >> due >> > to the re-authentication, of course. >> > >> > Anyway, I'll look forward to finding out what you are able to conclude. >> > Good luck :-) >> > >> > Ron >> > >> > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:17 AM Rajini Sivaram <rajinisiva...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Hi Ron, >> > > >> > > Disconnections on the broker-side: I think we should do disconnections >> > as a >> > > separate KIP and PR as you originally intended. But that one could be >> > done >> > > separately without requiring KIP-368 as a pre-req. As a simpler >> > > implementation and one that can be used without KIP-368 in some >> cases, we >> > > could commit that first since this one may take longer. >> > > >> > > I wasn't suggesting that we do move re-authentication to >> NetworkClient, I >> > > was thinking of the lower layers, handling authentication and >> > > reauthentication at the same layer in a similar way. Let me look into >> the >> > > code and come up with a more detailed explanation to avoid confusion. >> > > >> > > I am not too concerned about the imports in KafkaChannel. As you >> said, we >> > > can improve that if we need to. KafkaChannels are aware of >> > > network/authentication states and if that becomes a bit more complex, >> I >> > > don't think it would matter so much. My concern is about changes like >> > > >> > > https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/5582/files#diff- >> > 987fef43991384a3ebec5fb55e53b577 >> > > in ControllerChannelManager. Those classes shouldn't have deal with >> SASL >> > or >> > > reauthentication. Anyway, I will get back with more detail on what I >> had >> > in >> > > mind since that may not be viable at all. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:44 AM, Ron Dagostino <rndg...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > > >> > > > I just thought of another alternative if the imports are the >> concern. >> > > > KafkaChannel could expose the fact that it can create an additional >> > > > Authenticator instance on the side (what I referred to as >> > > > notYetAuthenticatedAuthenticator in the PR) and it could let >> > > > kafka.server.KafkaApis drive the whole thing -- create the instance >> on >> > > the >> > > > side, clean it up if it fails, move it into place and close the old >> one >> > > if >> > > > it succeeds, etc. Then KafkaChannel wouldn't need to import >> anything >> > new >> > > > -- it just exposes its Authenticator and the ability to perform the >> > swap >> > > > upon success, etc. >> > > > >> > > > Ron >> > > > >> > > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 5:01 PM Ron Dagostino <rndg...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Hi again, Rajini, I realized a couple of potential concerns with >> > using >> > > > > the TransportLayer directly during re-authentication. First, in >> the >> > > > > blocking I/O use case, the owner of the NetworkClient instance >> calls >> > > > > NetworkClientUtils.sendAndReceive() to send requests. This >> method >> > > > > assumes the caller has exclusive access to the NetworkClient, so >> it >> > > does >> > > > > not check to see if the node is ready; it just sends the request >> and >> > > > > repeatedly calls poll() until the response arrives. if we were to >> > take >> > > > > the connection temporarily offline that method currently has no >> > > mechanism >> > > > > for checking for such a state before it sends the request; we >> could >> > add >> > > > it, >> > > > > but we would have to put in some kind of sleep loop to keep >> checking >> > > for >> > > > it >> > > > > to come back "online" before it could send. Adding such a sleep >> loop >> > > > could >> > > > > be done, of course, but it doesn't sound ideal. >> > > > > >> > > > > A similar sleep loop situation exists in the async use case. The >> > owner >> > > > > repeatedly calls poll() in a loop, but if the connection to the >> node >> > is >> > > > > temporarily offline then the poll() method would have to enter a >> > sleep >> > > > > loop until either the connection comes back online or the timeout >> > > elapses >> > > > > (whichever comes first). >> > > > > >> > > > > I don't know if there is an aversion to adding sleep loops like >> that, >> > > so >> > > > > maybe it isn't a big issue, but I wanted to raise it as a >> potential >> > > > concern >> > > > > with this approach. >> > > > > >> > > > > Also, is the import of SASL-specific classes in KafkaChannel a >> major >> > > > > objection to the current implementation? I could eliminate that >> by >> > > > > replacing the 2 offending methods in KafkaChannel with this one >> and >> > > > > having the implementation delegate to the authenticator: >> > > > > >> > > > > /** >> > > > > * Respond to a re-authentication request. This occurs on the >> > > > > * Server side of the re-authentication dance (i.e. on the >> > broker). >> > > > > * >> > > > > * @param requestHeader >> > > > > * the request header >> > > > > * @param request >> > > > > * the request to process >> > > > > * @return the response to return to the client >> > > > > */ >> > > > > public AbstractResponse respondToReauthenticationReque >> > > > st(RequestHeader >> > > > > requestHeader, >> > > > > AbstractRequest request) >> > > > > >> > > > > There is practically no work being done in the KafkaChannel >> instance >> > > > > anyway -- it does some sanity checking but otherwise delegates to >> the >> > > > > authenticator. We could just add a method to the Authenticator >> > > interface >> > > > > and delegate the whole thing. >> > > > > >> > > > > Ron >> > > > > >> > > > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM Ron Dagostino <rndg...@gmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > >> Hi Rajini. I'm now skeptical of my "ConnectionState. >> > REAUTHENTICATING" >> > > > idea. >> > > > >> The concept of a connection being "READY" or not can impact >> > > > >> ConsumerCoordinator (see, for example, >> > > > >> https://github.com/apache/kafka/blob/trunk/clients/src/ >> > > > main/java/org/apache/kafka/clients/consumer/internals/ >> > > > ConsumerCoordinator.java#L352). >> > > > >> The semantics of a connection being "READY" and the >> > > > >> implications/assumptions are not clear, and I suspect there will >> be >> > > some >> > > > >> unintended consequences of this approach that may not be >> immediately >> > > > >> apparent. >> > > > >> >> > > > >> I will confess that when I was implementing re-authentication I >> > > thought >> > > > >> it might be worthwhile to unify the authentication-related code >> > bases >> > > -- >> > > > >> except I suspected it would be good to go in the other direction: >> > have >> > > > the >> > > > >> current code that directly uses the TransportLayer instead use >> > > > >> AuthenticationSuccessOrFailureReceiver and >> > > > AuthenticationRequestEnqueuer. >> > > > >> I'm not advocating that we do it -- I decided to not go there >> when >> > > > creating >> > > > >> the PR, after all -- but I did get a strong feeling that directly >> > > using >> > > > the >> > > > >> TransportLayer as is currently done is really only viable before >> > > anybody >> > > > >> else starts using the connection. If we want to use the >> > > TransportLayer >> > > > again >> > > > >> after that point then it is up to us to somehow take the >> connection >> > > > >> "temporarily offline" so that we have exclusive rights to it >> again, >> > > and >> > > > I >> > > > >> wonder if the concept of a connection being "temporarily >> offline" is >> > > > >> something the existing code is able to handle -- probably not, >> and I >> > > > >> suspect there are unstated assumptions that would be invalidated. >> > > > >> >> > > > >> Do you think this particular "ConnectionState.REAUTHENTICATING" >> > idea >> > > is >> > > > >> worth pursuing? How about the general idea of trying to use the >> > > > >> TransportLayer directly -- are you still feeling like it is >> viable? >> > > > >> >> > > > >> Ron >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> Ron >> > > > >> >> > > > >> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:40 AM Ron Dagostino <rndg...@gmail.com >> > >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> >> > > > >>> <<<in favor of implementing server-side kill in addition to >> > > > >>> re-authentication, not as a replacement. >> > > > >>> <<<I think Rajini suggested the same thing >> > > > >>> Oh, ok, I misunderstood. Then I think we are on the same page: >> if >> > we >> > > > >>> are going to do re-authentication, then we should also do >> > > > >>> server-side-kill-upon-expiration as part of the same >> > implementation. >> > > > I'm >> > > > >>> good with that. >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> I am also looking into Rajini's idea of doing re-authentication >> at >> > > the >> > > > >>> NetworkClient level and reusing the existing authentication code >> > > > path. I >> > > > >>> was skeptical when she suggested it, but now that I look closer >> I >> > see >> > > > >>> something that I can try. NetworkClient has logic to recognize >> the >> > > > >>> state "ConnectionState.CONNECTING" as meaning "you can't do >> > anything >> > > > >>> with this connection at the moment; please wait." I'm going to >> try >> > > > adding >> > > > >>> a new state "ConnectionState.REAUTHENTICATING" that would be >> > > > recognized >> > > > >>> in a similar way. Then the challenge becomes inserting myself >> into >> > > any >> > > > >>> existing flow that might be going on. I'll probably add the >> > request >> > > > to set >> > > > >>> the state to "REAUTHENTICATING" to a queue if I can't grab the >> > state >> > > > >>> immediately and have the network client's poll() method check at >> > the >> > > > >>> end to see if any such requests can be granted; there would be a >> > > > callback >> > > > >>> associated with the request, and that way I can be assured I >> would >> > be >> > > > >>> granted the request in a reasonable amount of time (assuming the >> > > > connection >> > > > >>> doesn't close in the meantime). Then it would be up the >> callback >> > > > >>> implementation to perform the re-authentication dance and set >> the >> > > state >> > > > >>> back to "ConnectionState.READY". I don't know if this will >> work, >> > and >> > > > >>> I'm probably missing some subtleties at the moment, but I'll >> give >> > it >> > > a >> > > > shot >> > > > >>> and see what happens. >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> Ron >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:23 AM Colin McCabe < >> cmcc...@apache.org> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>>> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018, at 07:34, Ron Dagostino wrote: >> > > > >>>> > I added a "How To Support Re-Authentication for Other SASL >> > > > Mechanisms" >> > > > >>>> > section to the KIP as Rajini suggested. I also added a >> > "Rejected >> > > > >>>> > Alternative" for the idea of forcibly closing connections on >> the >> > > > >>>> client >> > > > >>>> > side upon token refresh or on the server side upon token >> > > expiration. >> > > > >>>> It >> > > > >>>> > may be a bit premature to reject the server-side kill >> scenario >> > > given >> > > > >>>> that >> > > > >>>> > Colin and Rajini are partial to it, but see below for what I >> > said >> > > > >>>> about it, >> > > > >>>> > and I think it makes sense -- server-side kill without an >> > ability >> > > > for >> > > > >>>> the >> > > > >>>> > client to re-authenticate to avoid it may be useful in >> certain >> > > > >>>> specific >> > > > >>>> > cases, but as a general feature it doesn't really work. I >> would >> > > be >> > > > >>>> willing >> > > > >>>> > to add server-side-kill to the scope of this KIP if that is >> > > desired. >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> Hi Ron, >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> To clarify, I am in favor of implementing server-side kill in >> > > addition >> > > > >>>> to re-authentication, not as a replacement. I think Rajini >> > > suggested >> > > > the >> > > > >>>> same thing. >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> It seems clear that server-side kill is needed to provide >> > security. >> > > > >>>> Otherwise a bad client can simply decide not to >> re-authenticate, >> > and >> > > > >>>> continue using server resources indefinitely. Neither >> > > authentication >> > > > nor >> > > > >>>> re-authentication should be optional, or else the bad guys will >> > > > simply take >> > > > >>>> the option not to authenticate. >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> best, >> > > > >>>> Colin >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > A brute-force alternative is to simply kill the connection on >> > the >> > > > >>>> client >> > > > >>>> > > side when the background login thread refreshes the >> > credential. >> > > > The >> > > > >>>> > > advantage is that we don't need a code path for >> > > re-authentication >> > > > – >> > > > >>>> the >> > > > >>>> > > client simply connects again to replace the connection that >> > was >> > > > >>>> killed. >> > > > >>>> > > There are many disadvantages, though. The approach is >> harsh – >> > > > >>>> having >> > > > >>>> > > connections pulled out from underneath the client will >> > introduce >> > > > >>>> latency >> > > > >>>> > > while the client reconnects; it introduces non-trivial >> > resource >> > > > >>>> utilization >> > > > >>>> > > on both the client and server as TLS is renegotiated; and >> it >> > > > forces >> > > > >>>> the >> > > > >>>> > > client to periodically "recover" from what essentially >> looks >> > > like >> > > > a >> > > > >>>> failure >> > > > >>>> > > scenario. While these are significant disadvantages, the >> most >> > > > >>>> significant >> > > > >>>> > > disadvantage of all is that killing connections on the >> client >> > > side >> > > > >>>> adds no >> > > > >>>> > > security – trusting the client to kill its connection in a >> > > timely >> > > > >>>> fashion >> > > > >>>> > > is a blind and unjustifiable trust. >> > > > >>>> > > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > > We could kill the connection from the server side instead, >> > when >> > > > the >> > > > >>>> token >> > > > >>>> > > expires. But in this case, if there is no ability for the >> > > client >> > > > to >> > > > >>>> > > re-authenticate to avoid the killing of the connection in >> the >> > > > first >> > > > >>>> place, >> > > > >>>> > > then we still have all of the harsh approach disadvantages >> > > > >>>> mentioned above. >> > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > Ron >> > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 10:25 AM Colin McCabe < >> > cmcc...@apache.org> >> > > > >>>> wrote: >> > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018, at 01:41, Rajini Sivaram wrote: >> > > > >>>> > > > *Re-authentication vs disconnection:* >> > > > >>>> > > > In a vast number of secure Kafka deployments, SASL_SSL is >> > the >> > > > >>>> security >> > > > >>>> > > > protocol (this is the recommended config for >> OAUTHBEARER). >> > If >> > > we >> > > > >>>> require >> > > > >>>> > > > disconnections on token expiry, we would need new >> > connections >> > > to >> > > > >>>> be >> > > > >>>> > > > established with an expensive SSL handshake. This adds >> load >> > on >> > > > >>>> the broker >> > > > >>>> > > > and will result in a latency spike. For OAUTHBEARER in >> > > > >>>> particular, when >> > > > >>>> > > > tokens are used to make authorisation decisions, we want >> to >> > > be a >> > > > >>>> able to >> > > > >>>> > > > support short-lived tokens where token lifetime (granting >> > > > >>>> authorisation) >> > > > >>>> > > is >> > > > >>>> > > > small. To make this usable in practice, I believe we >> need to >> > > > >>>> support >> > > > >>>> > > > re-authentication of existing connections. >> > > > >>>> > > >> > > > >>>> > > Hi Rajini, >> > > > >>>> > > >> > > > >>>> > > Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. >> > > > >>>> > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > *Also explicitly out-of-scope for this proposal is the >> > ability >> > > > for >> > > > >>>> > > brokers >> > > > >>>> > > > to close connections that continue to use expired >> > credentials. >> > > > >>>> This >> > > > >>>> > > > ability is a natural next step, but it will be addressed >> > via a >> > > > >>>> separate >> > > > >>>> > > KIP >> > > > >>>> > > > if/when this one is adopted.* >> > > > >>>> > > > Perhaps we could do this the other way round? I don't >> think >> > we >> > > > >>>> would ever >> > > > >>>> > > > want to close connections on the client-side to support >> > > expired >> > > > >>>> > > credentials >> > > > >>>> > > > because that doesn't add any security guarantees. But we >> do >> > > > >>>> require the >> > > > >>>> > > > ability for brokers to close connections in order to >> enforce >> > > > >>>> credential >> > > > >>>> > > > expiry. Disconnection on the broker-side may be >> sufficient >> > for >> > > > >>>> some >> > > > >>>> > > > deployments and could be useful on its own. It would >> also be >> > > the >> > > > >>>> easier >> > > > >>>> > > > implementation. So maybe that could be the first step? >> > > > >>>> > > >> > > > >>>> > > +1 for doing disconnection first. Otherwise, as you noted, >> > > there >> > > > >>>> are no >> > > > >>>> > > security guarantees -- the client can just decide not to >> > > > >>>> re-authenticate >> > > > >>>> > > and keep using the old credentials. You don't even need to >> > > modify >> > > > >>>> the >> > > > >>>> > > source code -- older clients would behave this way. >> > > > >>>> > > >> > > > >>>> > > best, >> > > > >>>> > > Colin >> > > > >>>> > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > *The implementation is designed in such a way that it >> does >> > not >> > > > >>>> preclude >> > > > >>>> > > > adding support for re-authentication of other SASL >> mechanism >> > > > >>>> (e.g. PLAIN, >> > > > >>>> > > > SCRAM-related, and GSSAPI), but doing so is explicitly >> > > > >>>> out-of-scope for >> > > > >>>> > > > this proposal. * >> > > > >>>> > > > Isn't re-authentication driven by ExpiringCredential? We >> > don't >> > > > >>>> need to >> > > > >>>> > > > support re-authentication by default for the other >> > mechanisms >> > > in >> > > > >>>> this >> > > > >>>> > > KIP, >> > > > >>>> > > > but any mechanism could enable this by adding a custom >> login >> > > > >>>> callback >> > > > >>>> > > > handler to provide an ExpiringCredential? For >> disconnection >> > as >> > > > >>>> well as >> > > > >>>> > > > re-authentication, it will be good if we can specify >> exactly >> > > how >> > > > >>>> it can >> > > > >>>> > > be >> > > > >>>> > > > implemented for each of the SASL mechanisms, even if we >> > > actually >> > > > >>>> > > implement >> > > > >>>> > > > it only for OAUTHBEARER. >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:43 AM, Colin McCabe < >> > > > cmcc...@apache.org> >> > > > >>>> wrote: >> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, at 17:43, Ron Dagostino wrote: >> > > > >>>> > > > > > Hi Colin. Different organizations will rely on >> > different >> > > > >>>> token >> > > > >>>> > > > > lifetimes, >> > > > >>>> > > > > > but anything shorter than an hour feels like it >> would be >> > > > >>>> pretty >> > > > >>>> > > > > > aggressive. An hour or more will probably be most >> > common. >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > Thanks. That's helpful to give me a sense of what the >> > > > >>>> performance >> > > > >>>> > > impact >> > > > >>>> > > > > might be. >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > <<<alternate solution of terminating connections when >> > the >> > > > >>>> bearer >> > > > >>>> > > token >> > > > >>>> > > > > > changed >> > > > >>>> > > > > > I may be mistaken, but I think you are suggesting >> here >> > > that >> > > > we >> > > > >>>> > > forcibly >> > > > >>>> > > > > > kill connections from the client side whenever the >> > > > background >> > > > >>>> Login >> > > > >>>> > > > > refresh >> > > > >>>> > > > > > thread refreshes the token (which it currently does >> so >> > > that >> > > > >>>> the >> > > > >>>> > > client >> > > > >>>> > > > > can >> > > > >>>> > > > > > continue to make new connections). Am I correct? >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > Yes, this is what I'm thinking about. We could also >> > > terminate >> > > > >>>> the >> > > > >>>> > > > > connection on the server, if that is more convenient. >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > If that is what you are >> > > > >>>> > > > > > referring to, my sense is that it would be a very >> crude >> > > way >> > > > of >> > > > >>>> > > dealing >> > > > >>>> > > > > with >> > > > >>>> > > > > > the issue that would probably lead to >> dissatisfaction in >> > > > some >> > > > >>>> sense >> > > > >>>> > > > > (though >> > > > >>>> > > > > > I can't be sure). >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > What information should we gather so that we can be >> sure? >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > I do know that when I implemented SASL/OAUTHBEARER >> it >> > > > >>>> > > > > > was communicated that leaving existing connections >> > intact >> > > -- >> > > > >>>> as is >> > > > >>>> > > done >> > > > >>>> > > > > for >> > > > >>>> > > > > > GSSAPI -- was the appropriate path forward. >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > Thanks, that's good background information. Can >> someone >> > > chime >> > > > >>>> in with >> > > > >>>> > > the >> > > > >>>> > > > > reasoning behind this? >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > My best guess is that terminating connections might >> cause >> > a >> > > > >>>> temporary >> > > > >>>> > > > > increase in latency as they are re-established. >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > In any case, we should figure out what the reasoning >> is so >> > > > that >> > > > >>>> we can >> > > > >>>> > > > > make a decision. It seems worthwhile including this >> as a >> > > > >>>> "rejected >> > > > >>>> > > > > alternative," at least. >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > thanks, >> > > > >>>> > > > > Colin >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > Ron >> > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 8:31 PM Colin McCabe < >> > > > >>>> cmcc...@apache.org> >> > > > >>>> > > wrote: >> > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > Hi Ron, >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > Thanks for the KIP. >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > What is the frequency at which you envision bearer >> > > tokens >> > > > >>>> changing >> > > > >>>> > > at? >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > Did you consider the alternate solution of >> terminating >> > > > >>>> connections >> > > > >>>> > > when >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > the bearer token changed? >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > best, >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > Colin >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018, at 07:28, Ron Dagostino >> wrote: >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > Hi everyone. I created KIP 368: Allow SASL >> > Connections >> > > > to >> > > > >>>> > > > > Periodically >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > Re-Authenticate >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > < >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/ >> > confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP- >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > 368%3A+Allow+SASL+Connections+to+Periodically+Re-Authenticate >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > ( >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/ >> > confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP- >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > 368%3A+Allow+SASL+Connections+to+Periodically+Re-Authenticate >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > ). >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > The motivation for this KIP is as follows: >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > The adoption of KIP-255: OAuth Authentication via >> > > > >>>> > > SASL/OAUTHBEARER >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > < >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage >> . >> > > > >>>> > > > > action?pageId=75968876> >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > in >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > release 2.0.0 creates the possibility of using >> > > > >>>> information in the >> > > > >>>> > > > > bearer >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > token to make authorization decisions. >> > Unfortunately, >> > > > >>>> however, >> > > > >>>> > > Kafka >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > connections are long-lived, so there is no >> ability >> > to >> > > > >>>> change the >> > > > >>>> > > > > bearer >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > token associated with a particular connection. >> > > Allowing >> > > > >>>> SASL >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > connections >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > to periodically re-authenticate would resolve >> this. >> > > In >> > > > >>>> addition >> > > > >>>> > > to >> > > > >>>> > > > > this >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > motivation there are two others that are >> > > > security-related. >> > > > >>>> > > First, to >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > eliminate access to Kafka for connected clients, >> the >> > > > >>>> current >> > > > >>>> > > > > requirement >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > is >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > to remove all authorizations (i.e. remove all >> ACLs). >> > > > >>>> This is >> > > > >>>> > > > > necessary >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > because of the long-lived nature of the >> connections. >> > > It >> > > > >>>> is >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > operationally >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > simpler to shut off access at the point of >> > > > >>>> authentication, and >> > > > >>>> > > with >> > > > >>>> > > > > the >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > release of KIP-86: Configurable SASL Callback >> > Handlers >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > < >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/ >> > confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP- >> > > > >>>> > > > > 86%3A+Configurable+SASL+callback+handlers >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > it >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > is going to become more and more likely that >> > > > >>>> installations will >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > authenticate users against external directories >> > (e.g. >> > > > via >> > > > >>>> > > LDAP). The >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > ability to stop Kafka access by simply disabling >> an >> > > > >>>> account in an >> > > > >>>> > > > > LDAP >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > directory (for example) is desirable. The second >> > > > >>>> motivating >> > > > >>>> > > factor >> > > > >>>> > > > > for >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > re-authentication related to security is that the >> > use >> > > of >> > > > >>>> > > short-lived >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > tokens >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > is a common OAuth security recommendation, but >> > > issuing a >> > > > >>>> > > short-lived >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > token >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > to a Kafka client (or a broker when OAUTHBEARER >> is >> > the >> > > > >>>> > > inter-broker >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > protocol) currently has no benefit because once a >> > > client >> > > > >>>> is >> > > > >>>> > > > > connected to >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > a >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > broker the client is never challenged again and >> the >> > > > >>>> connection >> > > > >>>> > > may >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > remain >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > intact beyond the token expiration time (and may >> > > remain >> > > > >>>> intact >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > indefinitely >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > under perfect circumstances). This KIP proposes >> > > adding >> > > > >>>> the >> > > > >>>> > > ability >> > > > >>>> > > > > for >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > clients (and brokers when OAUTHBEARER is the >> > > > inter-broker >> > > > >>>> > > protocol) >> > > > >>>> > > > > to >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > re-authenticate their connections to brokers and >> > have >> > > > the >> > > > >>>> new >> > > > >>>> > > bearer >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > token >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > appear on their session rather than the old one. >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > The description of this KIP is actually quite >> > > > >>>> straightforward >> > > > >>>> > > from a >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > functionality perspective; from an implementation >> > > > >>>> perspective, >> > > > >>>> > > > > though, >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > the >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > KIP is not so straightforward, so it includes a >> pull >> > > > >>>> request >> > > > >>>> > > with a >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > proposed implementation. See >> > > > https://github.com/apache/ >> > > > >>>> > > > > kafka/pull/5582. >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > > Ron >> > > > >>>> > > > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > >>>> > > >> > > > >>>> >> > > > >>> >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >
