> > > Yes there are KIPs that are currently blocked on feedback/votes, but I > don't think it is an issue of not caring to comment vs having so many > KIPs and other code reviews in flight that people are just swamped. > > This is exactly my concern. Even now important patches and features have very long development and review cycles due to Kafka's small and very busy committer community. I feel that this change takes things in the wrong direction
> Joel > > On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 04:19:54PM -0800, Gwen Shapira wrote: > > Isn't requiring 3 binding votes a bit overly strict here? We are talking > > about patches which in can be fixed, reverted, etc. Not releases, which > > have legal implications. > > > > Why not go with usual definition: "lazy" = "No strong objections for few > > days"? > > This means contributors will not be blocked on issues where no one cares > to > > comment (and we had few of those). > > > > Gwen > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Joel Koshy <jjkosh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Sorry about this - I actually meant to suggest lazy consensus (which > > > is a stronger requirement): "3 binding +1 votes and no binding > > > vetoes." > > > > > > I have updated the wiki to lazy consensus - but can change it back if > > > there is a reasonable objection. > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 06:17:44PM -0500, Joe Stein wrote: > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Neha Narkhede <n...@confluent.io> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sounds good. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Jay Kreps <jay.kr...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > None on my part. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Joel Koshy <jjkosh...@gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > One amendment I would like to bring up for consideration wrt > the > > > KIP > > > > > > > process (before we formally include it in our by-laws) is to > not > > > > > > > restrict the votes to be a lazy majority of the PMC, and to > instead > > > > > > > make it a lazy majority of committers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our current requirement for code changes per our by-laws are +1 > > > from a > > > > > > > committer (who is not the contributor) followed by lazy > approval. I > > > > > > > think a lazy majority vote for more significant code changes > > > (i.e., a > > > > > > > KIP) should be sufficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any objection to this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 10:31:08AM -0800, Jay Kreps wrote: > > > > > > > > Great! Sounds like everyone is on the same page > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - I created a template page to make things easier. If you > do > > > > > > > Tools->Copy > > > > > > > > on this page you can just fill in the italic portions with > > > your > > > > > > > details. > > > > > > > > - I retrofitted KIP-1 to match this formatting > > > > > > > > - I added the metadata section people asked for (a link > to the > > > > > > > > discussion, the JIRA, and the current status). Let's make > > > sure we > > > > > > > remember > > > > > > > > to update the current status as things are figured out. > > > > > > > > - Let's keep the discussion on the mailing list rather > than > > > on the > > > > > > > wiki > > > > > > > > pages. It makes sense to do one or the other so all the > > > comments > > > > > are > > > > > > > in one > > > > > > > > place and I think prior experience is that the wiki > comments > > > are > > > > > the > > > > > > > worse > > > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be great do KIPs for some of the in-flight > items > > > > > folks > > > > > > > > mentioned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Gwen Shapira < > > > gshap...@cloudera.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will be happy to provide a KIP for the multiple-listeners > > > patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gwen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Joe Stein < > > > joe.st...@stealth.ly> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > +1 to everything we have been saying and where this (has > > > settled > > > > > > > to)/(is > > > > > > > > > > settling to). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure other folks have some more feedback and think > we > > > should > > > > > > > try to > > > > > > > > > > keep this discussion going if need be. I am also a firm > > > believer > > > > > of > > > > > > > form > > > > > > > > > > following function so kicking the tires some to flesh > out the > > > > > > > details of > > > > > > > > > > this and have some organic growth with the process will > be > > > > > healthy > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > beneficial to the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For my part, what I will do is open a few KIP based on > some > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > work I > > > > > > > > > > have been involved with for 0.8.3. Off the top of my head > > > this > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > include 1) changes to re-assignment of partitions 2) > kafka > > > cli 3) > > > > > > > global > > > > > > > > > > configs 4) security white list black list by ip 5) SSL > 6) We > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > have lots of Security related KIPs and should treat them > all > > > > > > > individually > > > > > > > > > > when the time is appropriate 7) Kafka on Mesos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If someone else wants to jump in to start getting some > of the > > > > > > > security > > > > > > > > > KIP > > > > > > > > > > that we are going to have in 0.8.3 I think that would be > > > great > > > > > > (e.g. > > > > > > > > > > Multiple Listeners for Kafka Brokers). There are also a > few > > > other > > > > > > > > > tickets I > > > > > > > > > > can think of that are important to have in the code in > 0.8.3 > > > that > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > have KIP also that I haven't really been involved in. I > will > > > > > take a > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > minutes and go through JIRA (one I can think of like auto > > > assign > > > > > id > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > already committed I think) and ask for a KIP if > appropriate > > > or > > > > > if I > > > > > > > feel > > > > > > > > > > that I can write it up (both from a time and > understanding > > > > > > > perspective) > > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > long story short, I encourage folks to start moving ahead > > > with > > > > > the > > > > > > > KIP > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > 0.8.3 as how we operate. any objections? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Guozhang Wang < > > > > > wangg...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1 on the idea, and we could mutually link the KIP wiki > page > > > > > with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > >> created JIRA ticket (i.e. include the JIRA number on the > > > page > > > > > and > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > KIP > > > > > > > > > >> url on the ticket description). > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Regarding the KIP process, probably we do not need two > phase > > > > > > > > > communication > > > > > > > > > >> of a [DISCUSS] followed by [VOTE], as Jay said the > voting > > > should > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > clear > > > > > > > > > >> while people discuss about that. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> About who should trigger the process, I think the only > > > involved > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > > >> would be 1) when the patch is submitted / or even the > > > ticket is > > > > > > > created, > > > > > > > > > >> the assignee could choose to start the KIP process if > she > > > > > thought > > > > > > > it is > > > > > > > > > >> necessary; 2) the reviewer of the patch can also suggest > > > > > starting > > > > > > > KIP > > > > > > > > > >> discussions. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Gwen Shapira < > > > > > > > gshap...@cloudera.com> > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > +1 to Ewen's suggestions: Deprecation, status and > version. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps add the JIRA where the KIP was implemented to > the > > > > > > > metadata. > > > > > > > > > >> > This will help tie things together. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Ewen Cheslack-Postava > > > > > > > > > >> > <e...@confluent.io> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > I think adding a section about deprecation would be > > > > > helpful. A > > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > >> > > fraction of the time I would expect the goal of a > KIP > > > is to > > > > > > fix > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > >> > replace > > > > > > > > > >> > > older functionality that needs continued support for > > > > > > > compatibility, > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > >> > > should eventually be phased out. This helps Kafka > devs > > > > > > > understand > > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > >> > long > > > > > > > > > >> > > they'll end up supporting multiple versions of > features > > > and > > > > > > > helps > > > > > > > > > users > > > > > > > > > >> > > understand when they're going to have to make > updates to > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > >> > applications. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Less important but useful -- having a bit of > standard > > > > > metadata > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > >> PEPs > > > > > > > > > >> > > do. Two I think are important are status (if someone > > > lands > > > > > on > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > KIP > > > > > > > > > >> > page, > > > > > > > > > >> > > can they tell whether this KIP was ever completed?) > > > and/or > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > version > > > > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > > > > >> > > KIP was first released in. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 9:20 AM, Joel Koshy < > > > > > > > jjkosh...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> I'm definitely +1 on the KIP concept. As Joe > > > mentioned, we > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > already > > > > > > > > > >> > >> doing this in one form or the other. However, IMO > it is > > > > > > fairly > > > > > > > ad > > > > > > > > > hoc > > > > > > > > > >> > >> - i.e., a combination of DISCUSS threads, jira > > > comments, RB > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > code > > > > > > > > > >> > >> comments, wikis and html documentation. In the > past I > > > have > > > > > > had > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > dig > > > > > > > > > >> > >> into a bunch of these to try and figure out why > > > something > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > >> > >> implemented a certain way. I think KIPs can help a > lot > > > here > > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > >> > >> providing guidelines on what to think about > > > (compatibility, > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > APIs, > > > > > > > > > >> > >> etc.) when working through a major feature; and > second > > > by > > > > > > > becoming > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > >> > >> crisp source of truth documentation for new > releases. > > > > > E.g., > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > >> > >> feature X: see relevant KIPs: a, b, c, etc. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 08:11:20PM -0800, Jay Kreps > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > Hey Joe, > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > Yeah I guess the question is what is the > definition > > > of > > > > > > > major? I > > > > > > > > > >> agree > > > > > > > > > >> > we > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > definitely don't want to generate a bunch of > > > paperwork. > > > > > We > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > >> enough > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > problems just getting all the contributions > reviewed > > > and > > > > > > > checked > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > >> > in a > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > timely fashion... > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > So obviously bug fixes would not apply here. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > I think it is also pretty clear that big features > > > should > > > > > > get > > > > > > > > > >> reviewed > > > > > > > > > >> > and > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > discussed. To pick on myself, for example, the > log > > > > > > compaction > > > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > >> was > > > > > > > > > >> > >> done > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > without enough public discussion about how it > worked > > > and > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > >> (imho). I > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > hope/claim that enough rigour in thinking about > > > use-cases > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > >> > operations > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > and so on was done that it turned out well, but > the > > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > >> > just > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > between a few people with no real public output. > This > > > > > kind > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > >> feature > > > > > > > > > >> > is > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > clearly a big change and something we should > discuss. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > If we limit ourselves to just the public > contracts > > > the > > > > > KIP > > > > > > > > > >> introduces > > > > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > discussion would just be on the new configs and > > > > > monitoring > > > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > >> > >> really a > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > discussion of the design and how it works which > is > > > > > > obviously > > > > > > > > > closely > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > related. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > I don't think this should be more work because in > > > > > practice > > > > > > > we are > > > > > > > > > >> > making > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > wiki pages for any big thing anyway. So this > would > > > just > > > > > be > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > >> > consistent > > > > > > > > > >> > >> way > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > of numbering and structuring these pages. This > would > > > also > > > > > > > give a > > > > > > > > > >> clear > > > > > > > > > >> > >> call > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > to action: "hey kafka people, come read my wiki > and > > > think > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > >> > through". > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > I actually thinking the voting aspect is less > > > important. > > > > > I > > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > generally clear when there is agreement on > something > > > and > > > > > > > not. So > > > > > > > > > >> from > > > > > > > > > >> > my > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > point of view we could actually just eliminate > that > > > part > > > > > if > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > >> > too > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > formal, it just seemed like a good way to > formally > > > adopt > > > > > > > > > something. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > To address some of your comments from the wiki: > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > 1. This doesn't inhibit someone coming along and > > > putting > > > > > > up a > > > > > > > > > patch. > > > > > > > > > >> > It > > > > > > > > > >> > >> is > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > just that when they do if it is a big thing > > > introducing > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > >> > functionality > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > we would ask for a little discussion on the basic > > > > > > > > > feature/contracts > > > > > > > > > >> > prior > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > to code review. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > 2. We definitely definitely don't want people > > > generating > > > > > a > > > > > > > lot of > > > > > > > > > >> > these > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > things every time they have an idea that they > aren't > > > > > going > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > >> > implement. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> So > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > this is only applicable to things you absolutely > will > > > > > check > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > code > > > > > > > > > >> > for. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> We > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > also don't want to be making proposals before > things > > > are > > > > > > > thought > > > > > > > > > >> > through, > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > which often requires writing the code. So I > think the > > > > > right > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > >> for a > > > > > > > > > >> > >> KIP > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > is when you are far enough along that you know > the > > > issues > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > >> > tradeoffs > > > > > > > > > >> > >> but > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > not so far along that you are going to be totally > > > opposed > > > > > > to > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > >> > change. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > Sometimes that is prior to writing any code and > > > sometimes > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > > >> > you > > > > > > > > > >> > >> are > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > practically done. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > The key problem I see this fixing is that there > is > > > enough > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > >> > development > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > happening that it is pretty hard for everyone to > > > review > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > > line > > > > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > > > > >> > >> every > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > iteration of every patch. But all of us should be > > > fully > > > > > > > aware of > > > > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > features, the ramifications, the new public > > > interfaces, > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > If > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > >> > aren't > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > aware of that we can't really build a holistic > system > > > > > that > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > >> > beautiful > > > > > > > > > >> > >> and > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > consistent across. So the idea is that if you > fully > > > > > review > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > KIPs > > > > > > > > > >> > you > > > > > > > > > >> > >> can > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > be sure that even if you don't know every new > line of > > > > > code, > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > major changes coming in. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > -Jay > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Joe Stein < > > > > > > > > > joe.st...@stealth.ly> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > Thanks Jay for kicking this off! I think the > > > confluence > > > > > > > page > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > >> > wrote > > > > > > > > > >> > >> up > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > is a great start. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > The KIP makes sense to me (at a minimum) if > there > > > is > > > > > > going > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > >> any > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > "breaking change". This way Kafka can continue > to > > > grow > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > blossom > > > > > > > > > >> > and > > > > > > > > > >> > >> we > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > have a process in place if we are going to > release > > > a > > > > > > thorn > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > >> > >> when we > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > do it is *CLEAR* about what and why that is. > We can > > > > > > easily > > > > > > > > > >> document > > > > > > > > > >> > >> which > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > KIPs where involved with this release (which I > > > think > > > > > > > should get > > > > > > > > > >> > >> committed > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > afterwards somewhere so no chance of edit after > > > > > release). > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > >> > >> approach I > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > had been thinking about also allows changes to > > > occur as > > > > > > > they do > > > > > > > > > >> now > > > > > > > > > >> > as > > > > > > > > > >> > >> long > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > as they are backwards compatible. Hopefully we > > > never > > > > > > need > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > KIP > > > > > > > > > >> but > > > > > > > > > >> > >> when > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > we do the PMC can vote on it and folks can > read the > > > > > > release > > > > > > > > > notes > > > > > > > > > >> > with > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > *CLEAR* understanding what is going to break > their > > > > > > existing > > > > > > > > > >> > setup... at > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > least that is how I have been thinking about > it. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > Let me know what you think about this base > minimum > > > > > > > approach... > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > >> > hadn't > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > really thought of the KIP for *ANY* "major > change" > > > and > > > > > I > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > >> > think > > > > > > > > > >> > >> more > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > about that. I have some other comments for > minor > > > items > > > > > in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > >> > >> confluence > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > page I will make once I think more about how I > feel > > > > > > having > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > KIP > > > > > > > > > >> for > > > > > > > > > >> > >> more > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > than what I was thinking about already. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > I do think we should have "major changes" go > > > through > > > > > > > > > confluence, > > > > > > > > > >> > >> mailing > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > list discuss and JIRA but kind of feel we have > been > > > > > doing > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > >> > already > > > > > > > > > >> > >> ... > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > if there are cases where that isn't the case we > > > should > > > > > > > > > highlight > > > > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > > > >> > >> learn > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > from them and formalize that more if need be. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > /******************************************* > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > Joe Stein > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > Founder, Principal Consultant > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > Big Data Open Source Security LLC > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > http://www.stealth.ly > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > Twitter: @allthingshadoop < > > > > > > > > > >> http://www.twitter.com/allthingshadoop> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > ********************************************/ > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Jay Kreps < > > > > > > > > > jay.kr...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > The idea of KIPs came up in a previous > > > discussion but > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > >> no > > > > > > > > > >> > >> real > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > crisp definition of what they were. Here is > an > > > > > attempt > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > >> > defining a > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > process: > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/Kafka+Improvement+Proposals > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > The trick here is to have something > light-weight > > > > > enough > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > >> > >> isn't a > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > hassle for small changes, but enough so that > > > changes > > > > > > get > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > >> > >> eyeballs of > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > the committers and heavy users. > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > -Jay > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > -- > > > > > > > > > >> > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > >> > > Ewen > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > > >> -- Guozhang > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Neha > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Joel > > > > >
