Hi Vladimir,
I think not accepting by community is possible only if PMC will veto
change. I didn't find any reasons why not to do this change and why it can
be vetoed..
I would appreciate if you will become mentor of this change and will assist
to Pavel or other community member to make this happen.
To my mind, the Apache Way is not abot rejecting things, it is about
sharing knowlege. If you will be able to share you experience to grow
community it would be good donation.
If you have any disagreements about this change, can we set up voice call
where you will explain how to do this proposal as good as it is possible.
Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov
пт, 6 июл. 2018 г. в 10:35, Vladimir Ozerov <voze...@gridgain.com>:
> Pavel,
>
> I do not think it is a good idea to delay discussions and decisions.
> Because it puts your efforts at risk being not accepted by community in the
> end. Our ultimate goal is not having as much features as possible, but to
> have a consistent product which is easy to understand and use. Having both
> IGFS and another one "not-IGFS" which is in fact the same IGFS but with
> different name is not a good idea, because it would cause more harm than
> value.
>
> Approaches which seems reasonable to me:
> 1) Integrate your ideas into IGFS, which is really flexible in how to
> process data and where to store it. PROXY mode is not a "crutch" as you
> said, but a normal mode which was used in real deployments.
> 2) Replace IGFS with your solution but with clear explanation how it is
> better than IGFS and why we need to drop thousands lines of battle-tested
> code with something new, what does virtually the same thing
> 3) Just drop IGFS from the product, and do not implement any replacement at
> all - personally, I am all for this decision.
>
> If you want I can guide you through IGFS architecture so that we better
> understand what should be done to integrate your ideas into it.
>
> Lat, but not least - we need objective facts why proposed solution is
> better in terms of performance - concrete use cases and performance numbers
> (or at least estimations).
>
> On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 1:45 AM Pavel Kovalenko <jokse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Vladimir,
> >
> > I just want to add to my words, that we can implement BLOB storage and
> > then, if community really wants it, we can adapt this storage to use as
> > underlying file system in IGFS. But IGFS shouldn't be entry point for
> BLOB
> > storage. I think this conclusion can satisfy both of us.
> >
> > 2018-07-06 0:47 GMT+03:00 Pavel Kovalenko <jokse...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Vladimir,
> > >
> > > I didn't say that it stores data in on-heap, I said that it performs a
> > lot
> > > of operations with byte[] arrays in on-heap as I see in , which will
> lead
> > > to frequent GCs and unnecessary data copying.
> > > "But the whole idea around mmap sounds like premature optimisation to
> me"
> > > - this is not premature optimisation, this is on of the key performance
> > > features. E.g. Apache Kafka wouldn't be so fast and extremely
> performant
> > > without zero-copy.
> > > If we can do better, why not just do it? Especially if it costs nothing
> > > for us (This is OS level).
> > > As I said in my first message, our end target is handling video and
> > > streaming, copying every chunk of it to on-heap userspace then to
> offheap
> > > and then to disk is unacceptable.
> > > You ask me to implement almost anything using just IGFS interface, why
> we
> > > need to do that? Proxy mode looks like crutch, to support replication
> and
> > > possibility to have some data in-memory I need to write again a lot of
> > > stuff.
> > > Let's finally leave IGFS alone and wait for IEP.
> > >
> > >
> > > 2018-07-06 0:01 GMT+03:00 Vladimir Ozerov <voze...@gridgain.com>:
> > >
> > >> Pavel,
> > >>
> > >> IGFS doesn't enforce you to have block in heap. What you suggest can
> be
> > >> achieved with IGFS as follows:
> > >> 1) Disable caching, so data cache is not used ("PROXY" mode)
> > >> 2) Implement IgniteFileSystem interface which operates on abstract
> > streams
> > >>
> > >> But the whole idea around mmap sounds like premature optimisation to
> > me. I
> > >> conducted a number of experiments with IGFS on large Hadoop workload.
> > Even
> > >> with old AI 1.x architecture, where everything was stored onheap, I
> > never
> > >> had an issue with GC. The key point is that IGFS operates on large
> > (64Kb)
> > >> data blocks, so even with 100Gb full of these blocks you will have
> > >> relatively small number of objects and normal GC pauses. Additional
> > memory
> > >> copying is not an issue either in most workloads in distributed
> systems,
> > >> because most of the time is spent on IO and internal synchronization
> > >> anyway.
> > >>
> > >> Do you have specific scenario when you observed long GC pauses with GC
> > or
> > >> serious performance degradation with IGFS?
> > >>
> > >> Even if we agree that mmap usage is a critical piece, all we need is
> to
> > >> implement a single IGFS interface.
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:44 PM Pavel Kovalenko <jokse...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Vladimir,
> > >> >
> > >> > The key difference between BLOB storage and IGFS is that BLOB
> storage
> > >> will
> > >> > have persistent-based architecture with possibility to cache blocks
> in
> > >> > offheap (using mmap, which is more simple, because we delegate it to
> > OS
> > >> > level)
> > >> > , while IGFS has in-memory based architecture with possibility to
> > >> persist
> > >> > blocks.
> > >> > BLOB storage will have possibility to work with small amount of RAM
> > >> without
> > >> > signficant performance drop (Using zero-copy from socket to disk)
> and
> > in
> > >> > opposite case it can keep all available blocks in offheap if it's
> > >> possible
> > >> > (Using mmap again).
> > >> > IGFS perform a lot of operations with blocks in on-heap which leads
> to
> > >> > unnecessary data copies, long GC pauses and performance drop. All
> IGFS
> > >> > architecture tightly bound with in-memory features, so it's too hard
> > to
> > >> > rewrite IGFS in persistent-based manner. But, cool IGFS features
> such
> > as
> > >> > intelligent affinity routing, chunk colocation will be reused in
> BLOB
> > >> > storage.
> > >> > Does it make sense?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > 2018-07-05 19:01 GMT+03:00 Vladimir Ozerov <voze...@gridgain.com>:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Pavel,
> > >> > > Design you described is almost precisely what IGFS does. It has a
> > >> cache
> > >> > for
> > >> > > metadata, split binary data in chunks with intelligent affinity
> > >> routing.
> > >> > In
> > >> > > addition we have map-reduce feature on top of it and integration
> > with
> > >> > > underlying file system with optional caching. Data can be accessed
> > in
> > >> > > blocks or streams. IGFS is not in active development, but it is
> not
> > >> > > outdated either.
> > >> > > Can you shortly explain why do you think that we need to drop IGFS
> > and
> > >> > > re-implement almost the same thing from scratch?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Dima, Sergey,
> > >> > > Yes, we need BLOB support you described. Unfortunately it is not
> > that
> > >> > easy
> > >> > > to implement from SQL perspective. To support it we would need
> > either
> > >> > MVCC
> > >> > > (with it's own drawbacks) or read-locks for SELECT.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Vladimir.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 10:40 AM Sergey Kozlov <
> skoz...@gridgain.com
> > >
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Dmitriy
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > You're right that that large objects storing should be optmized.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Let's assume the large object means the regular object having
> > large
> > >> > > fields
> > >> > > > and such fileds won't be used for comparison thus we can do not
> > >> restore
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > BLOB fields in offheap page memory e.g for sql queries if select
> > >> > doesn't
> > >> > > > include them explicitly. It can reduce page eviction and speed
> up
> > >> the
> > >> > > > perfomance and make less chance to get OOM.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:06 AM, Dmitriy Setrakyan <
> > >> > dsetrak...@apache.org
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > To be honest, I am not sure if we need to kick off another
> file
> > >> > system
> > >> > > > > storage discussion in Ignite. It sounds like a huge effort and
> > >> likely
> > >> > > > will
> > >> > > > > not be productive.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > However, I think an ability to store large objects will make
> > >> sense.
> > >> > For
> > >> > > > > example, how do I store a 10GB blob in Ignite cache? Most
> likely
> > >> we
> > >> > > have
> > >> > > > to
> > >> > > > > have a separate memory or disk space, allocated for blobs
> only.
> > We
> > >> > also
> > >> > > > > need to be able to efficiently transfer a 10GB Blob object
> over
> > >> the
> > >> > > > network
> > >> > > > > and store it off-heap right away, without bringing it into
> main
> > >> heap
> > >> > > > memory
> > >> > > > > (otherwise we would run out of memory).
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > I suggest that we create an IEP about this use case alone and
> > >> leave
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > file system for the future discussions.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > D.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 6:50 AM, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > >> > voze...@gridgain.com>
> > >> > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Pavel,
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Thank you. I'll wait for feature comparison and concrete use
> > >> cases,
> > >> > > > > because
> > >> > > > > > for me this feature still sounds too abstract to judge
> whether
> > >> > > product
> > >> > > > > > would benefit from it.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 3:15 PM Pavel Kovalenko <
> > >> jokse...@gmail.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > I think we have a little miscommunication here. Of
> course, I
> > >> > meant
> > >> > > > > > > supporting large entries / chunks of binary data.
> Internally
> > >> it
> > >> > > will
> > >> > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > BLOB storage, which can be accessed through various
> > >> interfaces.
> > >> > > > > > > "File" is just an abstraction for an end user for
> > >> convenience, a
> > >> > > > > wrapper
> > >> > > > > > > layer to have user-friendly API to directly store BLOBs.
> We
> > >> > > shouldn't
> > >> > > > > > > support full file protocol support with file system
> > >> capabilities.
> > >> > > It
> > >> > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > added later, but now it's absolutely unnecessary and
> > >> introduces
> > >> > > extra
> > >> > > > > > > complexity.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > We can implement our BLOB storage step by step. The first
> > >> thing
> > >> > is
> > >> > > > > > > core functionality and support to save large parts of
> binary
> > >> > > objects
> > >> > > > to
> > >> > > > > > it.
> > >> > > > > > > "File" layer, Web layer, etc. can be added later.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > The initial IGFS design doesn't have good capabilities to
> > >> have a
> > >> > > > > > > persistence layer. I think we shouldn't do any changes to
> > it,
> > >> > this
> > >> > > > > > project
> > >> > > > > > > as for me is almost outdated. We will drop IGFS after
> > >> > implementing
> > >> > > > File
> > >> > > > > > > System layer over our BLOB storage.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Vladimir,
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > I will prepare a comparison with other existing
> distributed
> > >> file
> > >> > > > > storages
> > >> > > > > > > and file systems in a few days.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > About usage data grid, I never said, that we need
> > >> transactions,
> > >> > > sync
> > >> > > > > > backup
> > >> > > > > > > and etc. We need just a few core things - Atomic cache
> with
> > >> > > > > persistence,
> > >> > > > > > > Discovery, Baseline, Affinity, and Communication.
> > >> > > > > > > Other things we can implement by ourselves. So this
> feature
> > >> can
> > >> > > > develop
> > >> > > > > > > independently of other non-core features.
> > >> > > > > > > For me Ignite way is providing to our users a fast and
> > >> convenient
> > >> > > way
> > >> > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > solve their problems with good performance and durability.
> > We
> > >> > have
> > >> > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > problem with storing large data, we should solve it.
> > >> > > > > > > About other things see my message to Dmitriy above.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > вс, 1 июл. 2018 г. в 9:48, Dmitriy Setrakyan <
> > >> > > dsetrak...@apache.org
> > >> > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Pavel,
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > I have actually misunderstood the use case. To be
> honest,
> > I
> > >> > > thought
> > >> > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > you were talking about the support of large values in
> > Ignite
> > >> > > > caches,
> > >> > > > > > e.g.
> > >> > > > > > > > objects that are several megabytes in cache.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > If we are tackling the distributed file system, then in
> my
> > >> > view,
> > >> > > we
> > >> > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > be talking about IGFS and adding persistence support to
> > IGFS
> > >> > > (which
> > >> > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > based on HDFS API). It is not clear to me that you are
> > >> talking
> > >> > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > IGFS.
> > >> > > > > > > > Can you confirm?
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > D.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Pavel Kovalenko <
> > >> > > > > jokse...@gmail.com>
> > >> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Yes, I have approximate design in my mind. The main
> idea
> > >> is
> > >> > > that
> > >> > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > already
> > >> > > > > > > > > have distributed cache for files metadata (our Atomic
> > >> cache),
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > > > data
> > >> > > > > > > > flow
> > >> > > > > > > > > and distribution will be controlled by our
> > >> AffinityFunction
> > >> > and
> > >> > > > > > > Baseline.
> > >> > > > > > > > > We're already have discovery and communication to make
> > >> such
> > >> > > local
> > >> > > > > > files
> > >> > > > > > > > > storages to be synced. The files data will be
> separated
> > to
> > >> > > large
> > >> > > > > > blocks
> > >> > > > > > > > > (64-128Mb) (which looks very similar to our WAL). Each
> > >> block
> > >> > > can
> > >> > > > > > > contain
> > >> > > > > > > > > one or more file chunks. The tablespace (segment ids,
> > >> offsets
> > >> > > and
> > >> > > > > > etc.)
> > >> > > > > > > > > will be stored to our regular page memory. This is key
> > >> ideas
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > > > > implement
> > >> > > > > > > > > first version of such storage. We already have
> similiar
> > >> > > > components
> > >> > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > our
> > >> > > > > > > > > persistence, so this experience can be reused to
> develop
> > >> such
> > >> > > > > > storage.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Denis,
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Nothing significant should be changed at our memory
> > >> level. It
> > >> > > > will
> > >> > > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > separate, pluggable component over cache. Most of the
> > >> > functions
> > >> > > > > which
> > >> > > > > > > > give
> > >> > > > > > > > > performance boost can be delegated to OS level (Memory
> > >> mapped
> > >> > > > > files,
> > >> > > > > > > DMA,
> > >> > > > > > > > > Direct write from Socket to disk and vice versa).
> Ignite
> > >> and
> > >> > > File
> > >> > > > > > > Storage
> > >> > > > > > > > > can develop independetly of each other.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Alexey Stelmak, which has a great experience with
> > >> developing
> > >> > > such
> > >> > > > > > > systems
> > >> > > > > > > > > can provide more low level information about how it
> > should
> > >> > > look.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > сб, 30 июн. 2018 г. в 19:40, Dmitriy Setrakyan <
> > >> > > > > > dsetrak...@apache.org
> > >> > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Pavel, it definitely makes sense. Do you have a
> design
> > >> in
> > >> > > mind?
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > D.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 30, 2018, 07:24 Pavel Kovalenko <
> > >> > > > jokse...@gmail.com>
> > >> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I would like to start a discussion about
> designing a
> > >> new
> > >> > > > > feature
> > >> > > > > > > > > because
> > >> > > > > > > > > > I
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > think it's time to start making steps towards it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I noticed, that some of our users have tried to
> > store
> > >> > large
> > >> > > > > > > > homogenous
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > entries (> 1, 10, 100 Mb/Gb/Tb) to our caches, but
> > >> > without
> > >> > > > big
> > >> > > > > > > > success.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > IGFS project has the possibility to do it, but as
> > for
> > >> me
> > >> > it
> > >> > > > has
> > >> > > > > > one
> > >> > > > > > > > big
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > disadvantage - it's in-memory only, so users have
> a
> > >> > strict
> > >> > > > size
> > >> > > > > > > limit
> > >> > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > their data and have data loss problem.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Our durable memory has a possibility to persist a
> > data
> > >> > that
> > >> > > > > > doesn't
> > >> > > > > > > > fit
> > >> > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > RAM to disk, but page structure of it is not
> > supposed
> > >> to
> > >> > > > store
> > >> > > > > > > large
> > >> > > > > > > > > > pieces
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > of data.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > There are a lot of projects of distributed file
> > >> systems
> > >> > > like
> > >> > > > > > HDFS,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > GlusterFS, etc. But all of them concentrate to
> > >> implement
> > >> > > > > > high-grade
> > >> > > > > > > > > file
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > protocol, rather than user-friendly API which
> leads
> > to
> > >> > high
> > >> > > > > entry
> > >> > > > > > > > > > threshold
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > to start implementing something over it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > We shouldn't go in this way. Our main goal should
> be
> > >> > > > providing
> > >> > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > user
> > >> > > > > > > > > > easy
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > and fast way to use file storage and processing
> here
> > >> and
> > >> > > now.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > If take HDFS as closest possible by functionality
> > >> > project,
> > >> > > we
> > >> > > > > > have
> > >> > > > > > > > one
> > >> > > > > > > > > > big
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > advantage against it. We can use our caches as
> files
> > >> > > metadata
> > >> > > > > > > storage
> > >> > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > have the infinite possibility to scale it, while
> > HDFS
> > >> is
> > >> > > > > bounded
> > >> > > > > > by
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Namenode capacity and has big problems with
> keeping
> > a
> > >> > large
> > >> > > > > > number
> > >> > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > files
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > in the system.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > We achieved very good experience with persistence
> > >> when we
> > >> > > > > > developed
> > >> > > > > > > > our
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > durable memory, and we can couple together it and
> > >> > > experience
> > >> > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > > > > services,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > binary protocol, I/O and start to design a new
> IEP.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Use cases and features of the project:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > 1) Storing XML, JSON, BLOB, CLOB, images, videos,
> > >> text,
> > >> > etc
> > >> > > > > > without
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > overhead and data loss possibility.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > 2) Easy, pluggable, fast and distributed file
> > >> processing,
> > >> > > > > > > > > transformation
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > and analysis. (E.g. ImageMagick processor for
> images
> > >> > > > > > > transformation,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > LuceneIndex for texts, whatever, it's bounded only
> > by
> > >> > your
> > >> > > > > > > > > imagination).
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > 3) Scalability out of the box.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > 4) User-friendly API and minimal steps to start
> > using
> > >> > this
> > >> > > > > > storage
> > >> > > > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > production.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I repeated again, this project is not supposed to
> > be a
> > >> > > > > high-grade
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > distributed file system with full file protocol
> > >> support.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > This project should primarily focus on target
> users,
> > >> > which
> > >> > > > > would
> > >> > > > > > > like
> > >> > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > use it without complex preparation.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > As for example, a user can deploy Ignite with such
> > >> > storage
> > >> > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > web-server
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > with REST API as Ignite service and get scalable,
> > >> > > performant
> > >> > > > > > image
> > >> > > > > > > > > server
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > out of the box which can be accessed using any
> > >> > programming
> > >> > > > > > > language.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > As a far target goal, we should focus on storing
> and
> > >> > > > > processing a
> > >> > > > > > > > very
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > large amount of the data like movies, streaming,
> > >> which is
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > > big
> > >> > > > > > > > trend
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > today.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I would like to say special thanks to our
> community
> > >> > members
> > >> > > > > > Alexey
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Stelmak
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > and Dmitriy Govorukhin which significantly helped
> me
> > >> to
> > >> > put
> > >> > > > > > > together
> > >> > > > > > > > > all
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > pieces of that puzzle.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > So, I want to hear your opinions about this
> > proposal.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > --
> > >> > > > Sergey Kozlov
> > >> > > > GridGain Systems
> > >> > > > www.gridgain.com
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
