The UDF spec does not require representations to be SQL. It merely does not
specify (in this revision) how other representations are to be written.
This seems like an easy extension (adding a new type in the
"Representations" section).
Cheers,
Dmitri.
On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 3:47 PM Ryan Blue <b...@databricks.com.invalid>
wrote:
> Right now, SQL is an explicit requirement of the spec. It leaves a way for
> future versions to add different representations later, but only SQL is
> supported. That was also the feedback to my initial skepticism about how it
> would work to add functions.
>
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 12:44 PM Dmitri Bourlatchkov
> <dmitri.bourlatch...@dremio.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I do not think the spec is meant to allow only SQL representations,
>> although it is certainly faviouring SQL in examples... It would be nice to
>> add a non-SQL example, indeed.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dmitri.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 9:00 AM Fokko Driesprong <fo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Coming from PyIceberg, I have concerns as this proposal focuses on
>>> SQL-based engines, while Python-based systems often work with data frames.
>>> Adding imperative languages like Python would make this proposal more
>>> inclusive.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Fokko
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Op do 8 aug 2024 om 10:27 schreef Piotr Findeisen <
>>> piotr.findei...@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Walaa, thanks for asking!
>>>> In the design doc linked before in this thread [1] i read
>>>> "Without a common standard, the UDFs are hard to share among different
>>>> engines."
>>>> ("Background and Motivation" section).
>>>> I agree with this statement. I don't fully understand yet how the
>>>> proposed design addresses shareability between the engines though.
>>>> I would use some help to understand this better.
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>> Piotr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [1] SQL User-Defined Function Spec
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BDvOfhrH0ZQiQv9eLBqeAu8k8Vjfmeql9VzIiW1F0vc
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 at 21:14, Walaa Eldin Moustafa <
>>>> wa.moust...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Piotr, what do you mean by making user-created functions shareable
>>>>> between engines? Do you mean UDFs written in imperative code?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 12:00 PM Piotr Findeisen
>>>>> <piotr.findei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hi,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thank you Ajantha for creating this thread. The Iceberg UDFs are an
>>>>> interesting idea!
>>>>> > Is there a plan to make the user-created functions sharable between
>>>>> the engines?
>>>>> > If so, how would a CREATE FUNCTION statement look like in e..g Spark
>>>>> or Trino?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Meanwhile, added a few comments in the doc.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Best
>>>>> > Piotr
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Thu, 1 Aug 2024 at 20:50, Ryan Blue <b...@databricks.com.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I just looked through the proposal and added comments. I think it
>>>>> would be helpful to also have a design doc that covers the choices from
>>>>> the
>>>>> draft spec. For instance, the choice to enumerate all possible function
>>>>> input struts rather than allowing generics and varargs.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Here’s a quick summary of my feedback:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I think that the choice to enumerate function signatures is
>>>>> limiting. It would be nice to see a discussion of the trade-offs and a
>>>>> rationale for the choice. I think it would also be very helpful to have a
>>>>> few representative use cases for this included in the doc. That way the
>>>>> proposal can demonstrate that it solves those use cases with reasonable
>>>>> trade-offs.
>>>>> >> There are a few instances where this is inconsistent with
>>>>> conventions in other specs. For example, using string IDs rather than an
>>>>> integer.
>>>>> >> This uses a very different model for spec versioning than the
>>>>> Iceberg view and table specs. It requires readers to fail if there are any
>>>>> unknown fields, which prevents the spec from adding things that are fully
>>>>> backward-compatible. Other Iceberg specs only require a version change to
>>>>> introduce forward-incompatible changes and I think that this should do the
>>>>> same to avoid confusion.
>>>>> >> It looks like the intent is to allow multiple function signatures
>>>>> per verison, but it is unclear how to encode them because a version is
>>>>> associated with a single function signature.
>>>>> >> There is no review of SQL syntax for creating functions across
>>>>> engines, so this doesn’t show that the metadata proposed is sufficient for
>>>>> cross-engine use cases.
>>>>> >> The example for a table-valued function shows a SELECT statement
>>>>> and it isn’t clear how this is distinct from a view
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 3:15 AM Ajantha Bhat <ajanthab...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Thanks Walaa and Robert for the review on this.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> We didn't find any blocker for the spec.
>>>>> >>> I will wait for a week and If no more review comments, I will
>>>>> raise a PR for spec addition next week.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> If anyone else is interested, please have a look at the proposal
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BDvOfhrH0ZQiQv9eLBqeAu8k8Vjfmeql9VzIiW1F0vc/edit
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> - Ajantha
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 1:27 PM Walaa Eldin Moustafa <
>>>>> wa.moust...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Hi Ajantha,
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I have left some comments. It is an interesting direction, but
>>>>> there might be some details that need to be fine tuned.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> The doc is here [1] for others who might be interested. Resharing
>>>>> since I do not think it was directly linked in the thread.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> [1]
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BDvOfhrH0ZQiQv9eLBqeAu8k8Vjfmeql9VzIiW1F0vc/edit
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Thanks,
>>>>> >>>> Walaa.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 11:09 PM Ajantha Bhat <
>>>>> ajanthab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Hi, just another reminder since we didn't get any review on the
>>>>> proposal.
>>>>> >>>>> Initially proposed on June 4.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> - Ajantha
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 4:21 PM Ajantha Bhat <
>>>>> ajanthab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> We've only received one review so far (from Benny).
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> We would appreciate more eyes on this.
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> - Ajantha
>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 4, 2024 at 7:25 AM Ajantha Bhat <
>>>>> ajanthab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> >>>>>>> Please find the proposal link
>>>>> >>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/iceberg/issues/10432
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> Google doc link is attached in the proposal.
>>>>> >>>>>>> And Thanks Stephen Lin for working on it.
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> Hope it gives more clarity to take the decisions and how we
>>>>> want to implement it.
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> - Ajantha
>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 4:01 AM Walaa Eldin Moustafa <
>>>>> wa.moust...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks Jack. I actually meant scalar/aggregate/table user
>>>>> defined functions. Here are some examples of what I meant in (2):
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hive GenericUDF:
>>>>> https://github.com/apache/hive/blob/master/ql/src/java/org/apache/hadoop/hive/ql/udf/generic/GenericUDF.java
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Trino user defined functions:
>>>>> https://trino.io/docs/current/develop/functions.html
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Flink user defined functions:
>>>>> https://nightlies.apache.org/flink/flink-docs-release-1.19/docs/dev/table/functions/udfs/
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Probably what you referred to is a variation of (1) where the
>>>>> API is data flow/data pipeline API instead of SQL (e.g., Spark Scala).
>>>>> Yes,
>>>>> that is also possible in the very long run :)
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> >>>>>>>> Walaa.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 2:57 PM Jack Ye <yezhao...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > (2) Custom code written in imperative function according
>>>>> to a Java/Scala/Python API, etc.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think we could still explore some long term opportunities
>>>>> in this case. Consider you register a Spark temp view as some sort of data
>>>>> frame read, then it could still be resolved to a Spark plan that is
>>>>> representable by an intermediate representation. But I agree this gets
>>>>> very
>>>>> complicated very soon, and just having the case (1) covered would already
>>>>> be a huge step forward.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -Jack
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 1:40 PM Benny Chow <btc...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's interesting to note that a tabular SQL UDF can be used
>>>>> to build a parameterized view. So, there's definitely a lot in common
>>>>> between UDFs and views.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 9:53 AM Walaa Eldin Moustafa <
>>>>> wa.moust...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a disconnect about what is perceived as a
>>>>> "UDF". There are 2 flavors:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (1) Functions that are defined by the user whose
>>>>> definition is a composition of other built-in functions/SQL expressions.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (2) Custom code written in imperative function according
>>>>> to a Java/Scala/Python API, etc.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All the examples in Ajantha's references are pretty much
>>>>> from (1) and I think those have more analogy to views due to their SQL
>>>>> nature. Agree (2) is not practical to maintain by Iceberg, but I think
>>>>> Ajantha's use cases are around (1), and may be worth evaluating.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Walaa.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 9:45 AM Ajantha Bhat <
>>>>> ajanthab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess we'll know more when you post the proposal, but
>>>>> I think this would be a very difficult area to tackle across engines,
>>>>> languages, and memory models without having a huge performance penalty.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Assuming Iceberg initially supports SQL representations
>>>>> of UDFs (similar to views as shared by the reference links above), the
>>>>> complexity involved will be similar to managing views.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Ryan, Robert, and Jack, for your input.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We will work on publishing the draft spec (inspired by
>>>>> the view spec) this week to facilitate further discussions.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Ajantha
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 7:33 PM Jack Ye <
>>>>> yezhao...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> > While it would be great to have a common set of
>>>>> functions across engines, I don't see how that is practical when those
>>>>> engines are implemented so differently. Plugging in code -- and especially
>>>>> custom user-supplied code -- seems inherently specialized to me and should
>>>>> be part of the engines' design.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this different from the views? I feel we can say
>>>>> exactly the same thing for Iceberg views, but yet we have Iceberg
>>>>> multi-dialect views implemented. Maybe it sounds like we are trying to
>>>>> draw
>>>>> a line between SQL vs other programming language as "code"? but I think
>>>>> SQL
>>>>> is just another type of code, and we are already talking about compiling
>>>>> all these different code dialects to an intermediate representation (using
>>>>> projects like Coral, Substrait), which will be stored as another type of
>>>>> representation of Iceberg view. I think the same functionality can be used
>>>>> for UDFs if developed.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I actually hink adding UDF support is a good idea, even
>>>>> just a multi-dialect one like view, and that can allow engines to for
>>>>> example parse a view SQL, and when a function referenced cannot be
>>>>> resolved, try to seek for a multi-dialect UDF definition.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess we can discuss more when we have the actual
>>>>> proposal published.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack Ye
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 1:32 AM Robert Stupp <
>>>>> sn...@snazy.de> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> UDFs are as engine specific and portable and
>>>>> "non-centralized" as views are. The same performance concerns apply to
>>>>> views as well.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Iceberg should define a common base upon which engines
>>>>> can build, so the argument that UDFs aren't practical, because engines are
>>>>> different, is probably only a temporary concern.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the long term, Iceberg should also try to tackle the
>>>>> idea to make views portable, which is conceptually not that much different
>>>>> from portable UDFs.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PS: I'm not a fan of adding a negative touch to the
>>>>> idea of having UDFs in Iceberg, especially not in this early stage.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24.05.24 20:53, Ryan Blue wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Ajantha.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm skeptical about whether it's a good idea to add
>>>>> UDFs tracked by Iceberg catalogs. I think that Iceberg primarily deals
>>>>> with
>>>>> things that are centralized, like tables of data. While it would be great
>>>>> to have a common set of functions across engines, I don't see how that is
>>>>> practical when those engines are implemented so differently. Plugging in
>>>>> code -- and especially custom user-supplied code -- seems inherently
>>>>> specialized to me and should be part of the engines' design.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess we'll know more when you post the proposal, but
>>>>> I think this would be a very difficult area to tackle across engines,
>>>>> languages, and memory models without having a huge performance penalty.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ryan
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 8:10 AM Ajantha Bhat <
>>>>> ajanthab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a discussion to gauge the community interest
>>>>> in storing the Versioned SQL UDFs in Iceberg.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We want to propose the spec addition for storing the
>>>>> versioned UDFs in Iceberg (inspired by view spec).
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These UDFs can operate similarly to views in that they
>>>>> are associated with tables, but they can accept arguments and produce
>>>>> return values, or even function as inline expressions.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many Query engines like Dremio, Trino, Snowflake,
>>>>> Databricks Spark supports SQL UDFs at catalog level [1].
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But storing them in Iceberg can enable
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Versioning of these UDFs.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Interoperability between the engines. Potentially
>>>>> engines can understand the UDFs written by other engines (with the
>>>>> translate layer).
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We believe that integrating this feature into Iceberg
>>>>> would be a valuable addition, and we're eager to collaborate with the
>>>>> community to develop a UDF specification.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen has already begun drafting a specification to
>>>>> propose to the community.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let us know your thoughts on this.
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dremio -
>>>>> https://docs.dremio.com/current/reference/sql/commands/functions#creating-a-function
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trino -
>>>>> https://trino.io/docs/current/sql/create-function.html
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Snowflake -
>>>>> https://docs.snowflake.com/en/developer-guide/udf/sql/udf-sql-scalar-functions
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Databricks -
>>>>> https://docs.databricks.com/en/sql/language-manual/sql-ref-syntax-ddl-create-sql-function.html
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Ajantha
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ryan Blue
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tabular
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert Stupp
>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> @snazy
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> Ryan Blue
>>>>> >> Databricks
>>>>>
>>>>
>
> --
> Ryan Blue
> Databricks
>
